Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.
Yeah, I'm kinda glad Knux didn't turn out looking like this.
Did this get brought up already? but I was just casually watching some YT vids about the Prototype, and someone mentions the date of the Proto is AFTER the MJ scandals started to become known.
So is the proto maybe further back than we realised? It seems odd for the MJ/Buxer tracks to be added in in such as short amount of time before launch, and after scandal information had come to light.
Or is it more a timeline of :
1) Original music is created at the start, either as placeholders or the original intended music.
2) MJ music is planned/composed to replace the old tracks
3) Scandals become known, Sega take action.
4) Sega revert back to Proto music for the time being while the sound team rework the music. (which is where the Proto we see here comes from)
5) Sound team finish the now edited MJ/Buxer tracks that then get added during the final months.
(Also Ignore this post if it has already been addressed or if I've got things wrong.)
Didn't they allegedly compose 41 tracks or something? Perhaps there may be a complete MJ team OST that only got a few handful of songs picked out from it for whatever odd reason. For them to have put that stuff in after the scandal suggests to me that SEGA weren't actually all that concerned about it, and that it was probably more of a time constraint thing in tracking the songs. It's also possible that STI waited until very late in dev to start tracking them, and MJ team told them to stop after the first several songs were done because MJ didn't like how it sounded.
This is pretty much baseless conjecture, though. Would be nice to know the truth of it all.
I highly doubt any Jackson music not in S3 final was ever in the game. If the proto date of about a month before release is correct, then the Jackson deal must have been way different then we thought initially. We know the game had a very short development period, since the 3D version was in development for a while until it was decided to make a more traditional sequel. And I highly doubt, if this game was built off of Sonic 2 the way 2 was built off 1 (which we have enough evidence of) then if they had the Jackson deal from the start BEFORE the allegations, then they sure wouldn’t have had the demo tracks in the code. They would have probably been using S2 tracks. So the Jackson deal must have been much later into the development, and i’m not saying after this prototype, since we can see other stuff in the process of being replaced like Knuckles sprites, the opening cutscene, and stuff. Now what confuses me is why Sega decided to make this deal after the suits started, as it would have been a real controversial thing in the news. My only theory is this. Jackson was a very eccentric guy. He for years wanted to play Spider-Man, so much so that he was willing to buy marvel or something like that to get it. And there’s also that simpson’s episode he went uncredited in. And we also know he was a big sega fan. He did lots of publicity with Sonic 2 for example. So what I think happened is Jackson really wanted to collaborate with Sega for Sonic 3, but Sega was worried about this risks, but Jackson agreed to not take credit for the chance to have his music in Sonic 3. Now there’s still some questions left unanswered. Like why were some tracks patched out in 3K while others stayed, why didn’t he do more for S&K, and so on.
I honestly think there is less MJ involvement than previously thought. Its really Brad Buxer and others at work here. The only 100% conclusive evidence is the Jam sample and the glass break (which is similar, but not exact). We now know that the S3 credits was Brad’s too and that Stranger In Moscow was based off of it when Brad was replaying some of the chords on piano for MJ. We know Ice Cap’s story.
I honestly think there were many alternative tracks composed by multiple people and only a fraction of what was made, got in. The S&K replacement pieces still seem weird to me, but the mini boss music used was actually the original. To be a fly on the wall when the decision’s were made....
When I think of green knuckles I think of darker shades, how wild if he was green though.
I'm just going to repost this here from the music thread for folks who don't think MJ was hands on with the game music:
TL;DR: MJ might not have produced the final cues himself, but his team was certainly working off demos and references he gave them, and he oversaw it all.
Hot take: None of the MJ/Buxer tracks fit in the game anymore. I repeat, none. They might sound "cool", "hip", and "fresh", but they just do not mesh with the other tracks at all. Now that I have seen the Mega Drive pre-MJ/Buxer (i.e. prototype) versions, I can truly be happy, for as they actually mesh with the other tracks quite nicely. Now, if only Prototype Ice Cap was finished.
To explain, here's part of why: for me, Prototype Carnival Night 1 provides a smoother transition from Marble Garden 2 to Carnival Night itself. Same goes for Prototype Launch Base 2 and Mushroom Hill. MJ/Buxer's Midboss track does not connect in any way to the end of zone Boss track in any way, not even in rhythm, whereas Prototype/S&K Miniboss actually does, building the right amount of suspense... and so on.
Im sorry, but despite how much I like Carnival Night as a alternative to what we got, and I’m indifferent to both versions of Launch Base, Hard Times will always be Ice Cap Zone.
Out of all the MJ/Buxer songs the only one that I would say doesn't fit is the miniboss theme, but I still love it regardless. I'm not sure either Launch base song fits the zone really, but both Carnival Night tracks and the Hard Times track fit the theme, Sonic 3's credits theme works as is, and the Competition menu theme works for what it is.
I agree that the proto tracks fit the game so much better. Nowadays I like to imagine if there would ever be a remaster of the game on current systems, the Brad Buxer tracks would play for Knuckles's playthrough instead of Sonic. I think they fit Knuckles more since the adventure games always associate him with rap music.
Ooh that'd be cool actually, an alternate Knuckles exclusive soundtrack
One more thing I will say: Knuckles' theme in both the prototype is no better than that of the final game's in that it's misleading in regards to his character overall. The S&K equivalent does a wholly better job at depicting that: Not sinister, but rather tough and confident, while also being a snarky snitch towards who he misleadingly thinks are the villains.
i also agree that his S&K theme is his definitive theme but i also like to think his proto theme like its his cutscene music. Here's how I love to see it. The only times you hear his S&K theme in sonic's story is during his first appearance and his Fight near the end. Everything in between those points in the story is the proto theme since he's causing mischief during those scenes.
I didn't take the time to deliberate on a more suitable palette, I merely swapped the red and green channels of his standard palette.
Having grown up with the PC version first, I always thought the MJ/Buxer tracks stuck out like a sore thumb and had always suspected that the proto/PC tracks were the originally intended tunes. I was still surprised to learn that was in fact the case, but still, gut feeling was always that these proto/PC tracks were more consistent with the rest of the OST. The biggest tell to me was that they have more unique act 1/2 mixes; the MJ/Buxer tracks are pretty lazy and basically the same songs with minor tweaks, unlike the rest of the OST's zone music.
The thing about this proto/PC music is that they're energetic and colorful, just like the gameplay and level design. It's more suited to be in a Sonic game.
Different take: The entire soundtrack for S3/K is kind of a mess and the whole situation would be better off if Sega had worked out the financial disagreements with Nakamura and had him do it. Then all three (or four) games would follow the same musical direction, and would continue to evolve with his style.
That's not to say the music we got is bad though. I really like a lot of it. I disagree with people saying that the MJ/Buxer stuff is the only thing that's out of place. When I played S3/K for the first time, I didn't like the music in MGZ, CNZ, LBZ, or MHZ. The rest was great. And the ones I didn't like grew on me over the years, though I still don't consider them to be that great. The MJ influence may be out of place, but I think it's more than that. It's a general clashing of different musician's different styles, and all that is only exaggerated by the non-zone themes being replaced with comparatively generic pieces since Nakamura was no longer involved.
(also this is my first post so hi everyone)
At the very least, now that we all know there's an original soundtrack (the Proto-OST), I think SEGA had no reason to not accept Taxman's proposal of a remaster. They could simply use said original soundtrack.
It may be harder to do than you think. MJ's estate could be holding the possibility's of a remaster back. It may not be the case but It's still a possibility.
At this point, I'm assuming that changing the soundtrack could be seen as on admission of guilt.
Yeah, that would've been more ideal. Could've avoided this whole problem with rereleases. If they replaced the entire OST with a newly composed Nakamura OST just for a remake, I would be a happy man.
But the PC version already changed the handful of different songs back to their prototype counterparts, how would doing the same thing now make it any different? I really am wondering if MJ's death in 2009 had anything to do with this, because I can't think of what else would've changed in the circumstances.
Separate names with a comma.