Sonic Month 2019: Sonic 3

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Working on my art!
    With all we know of Sonic 3 it's an interesting sprite timeline. I feel like it goes something like this:

    1. There's a prototype that probably exists before this one that likely includes more of the beta Knuckles sprites and early versions of the S&K levels
    2. Sonic Team decides that they want a new sprite style around when they realize Sonic 3 has to be split into 2 games. Knuckles is cut as a playable character. This beta is the inbetween where some aspects of their original design exist (the Angel Island Knuckles sprites, the surfboard intro, the hydrocity act 1/launch base act 1 backgrounds) and some new ideas exist (Knuckles new Sprite set)
    3. Sonic 3 comes out as is. They weren't able to finish everything though, as is shown by Sonic's incomplete sprites and Tails' minimal changes.
    4. The Sonic 3C builds are made. They're also when later stages started to be finalized as these stages have specific sprites for Tails that do not exist in Sonic 3 alone (the stage specific Sky Sanctuary Tails sprites don't exist in Sonic 3 alone, nor do his super transformation sprite).
    5. Sonic & Knuckles comes out. Some Tails sprites exist in S&K due to how the game ended up.
     
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  2. XRick

    XRick

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    I've been hearing @Master Emerald's Proto Sonic3 OST Remaster, but I don't find much difference in comparison to the final OST...
     
  3. I tried my hand at recreating HCz background as I am a fan of the plant theme.

    I did, however, remove the vegetation underwater as it makes it a little bit more credible.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Lookin' good.
     
  5. NeoFusionBox

    NeoFusionBox

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    Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Pro Survivor and Sonic 1: Emerald Land (in hiatus)
    That background made me a lot of feelings of Rusty Ruins and Tidal Tempest Zone.

    Nice job recreating the background.
     
  6. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    it is aquaculture ;) but great work! come to think of it, all the vegetation kinda makes it very Aquatic Ruin Zone-y, perhaps they were worried about hewing too close to reusing that theme.
     
  7. Prototype

    Prototype

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    Have we come any closer to figuring out what the deal is with the supposed dummy level elements, and whether there are any other remnants in the prototype? For those not aware, using Game Genie level select codes for unused level slots results in glitchy messes that nevertheless have a definite repeating level structure of straight platforms and a central pole in the middle. When activating the scaling sprite object in Angel Island Zone near the start, and scrolling around a little, you can see that the level layout of AIZ has been changed for the most part into this very same repeating structure but with graphics that seemingly fit the platform chunks perfectly, i.e. a central tree trunk and repeating small AIZ floor pieces. Object layouts are still weird and I can't tell if they're the same as the usual proto AIZ, but there's definitely something going on here with these repeated chunks, especially since AIZ graphics fit these chunks perfectly.

    Can anyone more knowledgable about layout data do some digging and see what's going on here? Untitled.png
     
  8. Hez

    Hez

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    VERY nice. Did you have to create any additional tiles?
     
  9. SyntaxTsu

    SyntaxTsu

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    Has anyone tested to see if the yellow springs embedded in the ground of the final FBZ1 match with the prototype layout for it? I have a suspicion that they'll fit on-top of the capsules at the start of the layout.
     
  10. Fred

    Fred

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    No there isn't. It's just garbage being interpreted as a level layout. You're not gonna find Genocide City down there.

    https://tcrf.net/Sonic_&_Knuckles#Flying_Battery_Zone_Act_1
     
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  11. SyntaxTsu

    SyntaxTsu

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    Huh - indeed they do! Shows that FBZ was developed in its old design a fair bit before the start of the level was re-vamped.
     
  12. Chibisteven

    Chibisteven

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    @Prototype If you take the RAM values for cutting off the bottom of any level in Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles and set it to $1000 you'll get this garbage data often with that level's own unique chunks. In unused level slots in Sonic 3 final and the prototype it tends to default to using Angel Island's garbage chunks but because there's no actual data to load here you get these repeating chunks seen at the bottom of every level all over the level itself from top to bottom. It's unique to Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles as neither Sonic 1 or Sonic 2 do this pillar thing. It's how the level structures work.
     
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  13. Yep, but I think this can be optimized to use the same tile count as the original.
     
  14. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    Indeed - in ORKAL's videos they show how to get there for multiple stages in the final game. At 9:13 here you can see similar structures in Carnival Night Zone. (The annotations got changed to CC, so be sure to have that on if you want their commentary)

     
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  15. Orengefox

    Orengefox

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    Right in front of my computer.
    Some artwork, a ZZT game, and a hack.
    I've not really had much chance to speak out on this. Then again, I don't get much chance to come onto here these days.

    I want to give big thank and well done to drx and to everyone who made this possible. To get the Sega Multimedia Studio Sega CD Demo, Sonic CD prototypes, Sonic Chaos prototypes, Sonic 2 prototypes and Sonic 3 prototype (especially them being the ones I've seen in magezine scans) is absolutely remarkable.

    These prototypes have been able to answer some things that I've been questioning for years. Look forward to having a playthrough of these myself~
     
  16. TheJart

    TheJart

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    Now, this is all mostly baseless and mostly a question for people that know the code inside and out, but iirc, the reason Knuckles is red in the first place is because a focus group didn’t like his original green color. Now that we have this new prototype and old Knuckles Sprites, is there a chance there’s a unused palette in the code that could be applied to the old Knuckles sprites? I know Green Knuckles probably never left concept art (and Archie) But considering how rushed S3s development seems to be i’d just thought i’d ask if there’s any sign of it here.
     
  17. Chainspike

    Chainspike

    Stealing rings since 1994 Member
    I would say no. The reason why is because the Angel Island cutscene Knuckles uses the 1P Knuckles palette. Assuming that it was green at one point, when it came time to update the 1P Knuckles palette, the AIZ cutscene Knuckles would also be changed. None of this applies to the other Knuckles cutscenes, because all of them use a palette that is separate from 1P Knuckles.
     
  18. The Observer

    The Observer

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    It's a no.

    The final game utilises two palette lines to account for the background change from the ocean into the forest during the intro, which carries into the cutscene very briefly. By disabling foreground layers and going frame-by-frame, you can see that Knuckles' palette is, for up to six frames, utilising the bush/forest color scheme. Then there's three frames of the Badnik palette in place before his actual palette is loaded. This is probably because his position in the final is closer to the forest undergrowth than in the prototype, thereby meaning that his appearing green here was circumstantial based on his proximity to objects that required another palette (but fails me to explain why the Badnik palette is loaded first).

    For the prototype, however, Knuckles' palette is loaded correctly by the time he's reached, but because the scene's not locked, moving past him just enough renders him in the Badnik palette. A quick look through the compiled unused palettes at TCRF doesn't give any indication that Knuckles ever had a green palette coded into the game.
     
  19. nineko

    nineko

    I am the Holy Cat Tech Member
    Well, unless you count this...

    (it's a joke of course, but I love how my own video is the top result if you look for "green knuckles in launch base" on Google, it's like I recorded it in 2006 waiting for this very moment when I could finally link to it, it has come full circle)
     
  20. Xilla

    Xilla

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    That particular glitch led to SEGA Mag UK's "Rankles" April Fools gag backfiring on them somewhat ;)