Sonic Month 2019: Sonic 3

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. SystemsReady


    I Have No Idea What I'm Doing At Any Given Moment Member
    The Twin Cities
    trying to not fall asleep while writing Selenium tests
    While reading the comparisons article, is it just me or is it weird that the final's Data Screen Sonic render in the background doesn't fully match either the final title screen or this prototype's?
  2. Blastfrog


    Cranky Cynic Member

    I just realized something about this palette when Sonic is no longer super. The darkest blue is the same as Sonic 2's, the regular Sonic 3 palette uses Sonic 1's darkest blue color instead. The brightest shade is also Sonic 2's second brightest, not its brightest. Also, they reversed the order of the blue colors in the S3 palette. This is very likely a leftover from an earlier version where the palette was slightly closer to S2's in these ways.

    I can't check right now, but I suspect the green color could be the brightest blue shade instead.

    Also worth noting the super palette has its shades in reverse order as well.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  3. LukyHRE


    The only one who has a Portal-themed avatar Member
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Bitching and complaining about my country -.-'
    Yeah, let's not imply dishonesty in taxman's part. He's just under a NDA.

    He and his team most surely got shown concepts from the classic games. He also managed to get old Digitizer files from Sonic CD, with the enemies intended for R2 (also in that thread), so it wouldn't be far fetched to think they got their hands on protos or old code.
  4. JoseTB


    Tech Member
    Can I suggest splitting this thread into two, one half for hacking, restoration and analysis, and the other for fan theory and conjecture discussion? I think the conversation would flow best in both camps that way.

    We can always use Lock-On technology later to have the full thread.
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  5. evilhamwizard


    Not sure if it was pointed out before, but the credits theme in this proto sounds like something Tatsuyuki Maeda would've done. There are some parts that sound like the instrument programming for Diamond Dust.
  6. MarkeyJester


    Vague Memories Resident Jester
    Here's something I was curious about.

    Given that the "apparent" MJ music is not in this build but is in the final, would this conclude that it was indeed not the scandals and really was simply that MJ was not happy with the resulting quality? Given the scandals happened prior to the date of this proto, at least if wikipedia is anything to go by

    "On August 24, 1993, as the third leg of Jackson's Dangerous World Tour began, news of the allegations broke to the public and received worldwide media attention."

    Assuming of course the date in the header is not specific to the manufacture date of the cartridge and rather the software on it... (I ain't checking all 19 pages for info by the way, sorry, but that's a little too overwhelming and I simply haven't the time).
  7. rata


    Trying to be useful somehow.
    Yeah, I said that too, it screams Tetsuyuki Maeda everywhere. I've got a looping VGZ of it, it's on page 14-16.

    I'm getting addicted to it.

    Edit: no, it was on page 12, post #230.
  8. SyntaxTsu


    Well, that's what i'd say is the case.
  9. JoseTB


    Tech Member
    Or, MJ music was actually implemented in an earlier build, then the replacements were composed and set in place when the scandal broke, and finally some genius at the very last minute decided to put them back :V

    It's hard to say, really. When you consider the possibility that this build might be a development "branch" by one of the developers working on the 2P mode, like some people have suggested here, and not 100% representative of what was finished at the time, then all bets are off on trying to make sense of the timeline. The "out-dated branch" theory is a bit iffy, since version control at the time was rudimentary at best, but it is true that there were multiple developers that would have been working on different things simultaneously.
  10. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

    Tech Member
    I was looking at the restored LRZ map and noticed some 16x16 blocks are messed up.

    I realized that this nemesis compressed art I found:


    actually fits in some of the missing blocks, as seen here:


    Also, the red thing is using the wrong palette line, it's supposed to be part of the pipes. Neat!

    There's also some kosinski compressed art that looks like LRZ tiles:


    I am thinking these are the rest of the missing blocks. Though it's odd that they would be split up like this, using different compression and everything.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  11. Mentski


    Pff. Member
    Parts Unknown
    Being a mysterious face.
    41 tracks. I can't ever remember it stated it was that many. That's an awful lot, considering how many we currently believe to attribute to Jackson's team in the final game, isn't it?

    Ignoring jingles, In S3 and S&K combined there's only about 50 tracks, and that includes the 5 that were outright replaced in S&K.

    That sounds very much like there's enough Jackson team-composed enough music for almost the entirety of S3&K, not just 3 stages and the S3 miniboss, Knuckles, and ending music. (We already knew of there was one track called "The Water" which has been assumed in the past to be Hydrocity related, but as far as I know, that was it, right?)

    I wonder what happened to the rest of that? Is there still a possibility that any of the other tracks that made the final game are the work of Team Jacko? Have we managed to confirm credit for all the other tracks? I know it was somewhat of a grey area at one point.

    I mean, obviously the ones that everybody always goes on about (which obviously include two confirmed Brad Buxer compositions) are clearly even more suspect now due to the absence in this proto (...and the use of the what we always considered to be the PC music instead? Yeah... Most of those still sound as out of place to me as they ever did, but that might just be nostalgia clouding my judgement, in the same way I can't stand Sonic Boom in Sonic CD.)

    On the subject of "If they had YM2612 versions of the PC versions, why didn't they use them in future Sonic 3 re-releases?", the answer might be that by doing that, it's a sign of admittance that they didn't "own" the other tracks, which could leave them open to a legal attack. Maybe.

    Sorry, probably talking out of my arse. Will shut up now.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
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  12. Blastfrog


    Cranky Cynic Member
    The last time S3 was rereleased was on the DS in 2010, and that compilation started dev in 2009, the year Michael Jackson died. I wonder if his death has anything to do with S3 not returning for almost a decade now.
  13. Xilla


    Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep Member
    My own feeling on it is that they started inserting the Jackson tracks then simply ran out of time. :V
  14. Jason


    *Results not lab tested. Member
    Technically the last release was on Steam, January 26th, 2011.

    I suppose Sonic Classic Collection is the last physical release of the game, though.
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  15. Hez


    Asshole Oldbie
    Your mother
    I'm starting to think we all overthought the MJ music thing. At least it being a reason that Sonic 3 hasn't been "remastered". My new guess is it really just boils down to complexity and money. The music in the PC version might really just have to do with their music "vault" being already converted to MIDI, while MJ's was likely a different format that they ported over to the genesis format. It makes so much more sense, and explains why its released in collections and what not after the fact.
  16. Hanging Waters

    Hanging Waters

    Amazing stuff!! As soon as AIZ began I was crossing my fingers to see that surfing intro. Hearing the PC tracks was another pleasant surprise, and of course none of us would have expected the drop dash to exist at that stage. The ring attack and fire-shield-esque move are neat as well, but at this point nothing I'm saying hasn't been already said. Wicked exciting stuff - thank you to drx and everyone else involved!

    Now, re:music - maybe I'm overlooking some important details, but there's something I'm missing here... how is it possible for them to include the MJ/Buxer tracks in various ports, but not in a standalone re-release/remake? Is there some difference in the legality of the former vs the latter? I don't personally understand why the original PC release includes the "new" tracks, while the DS and Steam ports (among others) don't.

    In regards to the dev timeline, it's interesting to think that this build existed before MJ and team were brought on, implying that SEGA already knew about the scandal to some extent. However, it is entirely possible that the tracks were simply still in the writing process. Or perhaps they were finished, and then omitted... and then someone decided to just pull the trigger and put them back in shortly before release, uncredited. I just think we should separate the date of the partnership and the date of the tracks actually being converted and put into a build of the game. It's entirely possible that Buxer was already writing, then shortly after this proto the tracks were put in, before MJ allegedly decided he didn't want to be credited. The idea that multiple builds may have existed between the different teams leaves a lot of room for speculation. Seems like we don't have any clear indication of whether or not this build was "up to date" on that front. Typical "this is all speculation" disclaimer.
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  17. Taylor


    Following the interview about 41 MJ songs, the Roger Hectors interview also indicates that there was plans for MJ and his crew to make enough songs for the entire game, which would imply that the MJ songs actually are the original songs, while the non-MJ music is merely the replacements. But why would replacements exist in an earlier proto and not in the final product? Surely an accident like that would've been caught? Or at the very least corrected by the time S&K came out? It already modifies some S3 tunes after all.

    The claim goes that rereleases like Steam or Sonic Mega Collection is just fine because they're emulations, but outright porting/remaking the game isn't. I don't know if something like that would actually hold up in a court of law though...I feel it's just fandom "wisdom" that has caught on. The complete absence of Sonic 3 since 2011 indicates that even emulations aren't allowed.
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  18. Blastfrog


    Cranky Cynic Member
    There's one major snag to that, however, and its name is Sonic Jam.
  19. SonicGenesis89


    Cool! Sweet! And Catchy! Member
    Green Hill Zone
    Collecting Sonic Manga
    I'm not sure if anyone noticed this yet but not only does Sonic's ring attack destroy enemies but it can also collect rows of rings that it comes into contact with. Pretty cool! :)
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  20. biggestsonicfan


    Model2wannaB Tech Member
    Formerly Sonic the Fighters
    I had not noticed that, actually. Thanks for pointing it out!