Sonic Month 2019: Sonic 3

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. minichapman

    minichapman

    I'd like to think I'll be imparting words of wisdo Member
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    Just a few quick things to note to those that don't know. By free-moving over the entirety of Launch Base 2. The final boss area and the Death Egg launch flames are all there, alas no final bosses.

    Knuckles Angel Island section is explorable to a point. And the weird unused red spheres from the Special Stages are placeable in debug mode on Angel Island. The same red spheres that was discovered in the final ROM.

    I just realised most of this was probably discovered in the livestream but I missed most of it.
     
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  2. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Well THIS is the nuttiest thing ever, hearing these previously exclusively-PC tunes officially using the MD sound driver, on an actual build. It's both cool and almost eerie, because I didn't think this actually existed in any capacity.

    On the other hand, it also doesn't surprise me TOO much, when I think back to the PC version. If you think about it, between the two sets (FM Synth and General Midi), the song arrangements for the FM set are nearly identical to their MD counterparts —including the non-MJ tracks— vs. the GM set, which is more remixed in many ways (FBZ Act 1, I'm looking at you!).

    It's also interesting (to me) that the music for MHZ Act 1, in this prototype, lacks the intro from the final version, much like the GM version of the song from SKC. Also the Act 2 doesn't have its intro either, which is completely unlike even the PC version. I'm having a ball picking apart all the nuances in the music between this prototype and SKC.

    One last thing...I just want to know if that funky 2 Player menu screen song is on here. I've noticed that people often omit that song, when speaking of all the replacements in SKC.
     
  3. SuperSonicRider

    SuperSonicRider

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    I don't know, I think we got a good bit out of the Sonic 3C releases. Seeing the start of implementation of Hyper forms, early S&K Special Stages, different LRZ outro, and an earlier credits medley with S3 songs. Of course there is a LOT on offer here with this version, with it being a build actually prior to the release of Sonic 3 "Part 1". But getting to know about any of this stuff is cool to me! :)

    ...speaking of the credits track though, this isn't particularly relevant to this build but I wanted to point it out. So, in this proto, Sonic 3 final, and Sonic 3C 0408, the song at sound test ID 26 is used for the credits music (which of course was changed from this proto to the final). In Sonic 3C 0517, we got our first glimpse of the S1/S2 style zone medley, and it completely replaces the S3 credits song at ID 26. But then in S&K 0525, they put the call to the S3 credits back at ID 26, and then moved the medley to ID DC. ...why? The S3 credits music isn't used anywhere in S3&K, and even as early as the 0525 prototype, they had begun replacing S3 songs with S&K versions. Not as perplexing as sound 2E situation but still seems a little strange :eyebrow:

    yes
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  4. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

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    Quite a lot of Knuckles' routes are done. "Done" in the Sonic 3 sense of the word (which means "not done" by Sonic 3&K standards), but it shows they were planning ahead.

    The write-up on Hidden Palace says that the British thought this was 40%-50% done and the Germans 80%-90%. I think it's genuinely closer to the latter - yes it's incredibly unpolished and the main Sonic graphics need replacing, but I think it's more done than the Alpha and Pre-Beta versions of Sonic 2 we just got. Or about the same, which I think is around the 70%-75% mark maybe.
     
  5. You-Are-Pwned

    You-Are-Pwned

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  6. The Other RaFaél

    The Other RaFaél

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    Fuckin' sweet!
     
  7. GoldS

    GoldS

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    Taking damage from horizontal or hanging spikes while in the middle of a drop dash jump (not in the actual dash, that works fine) will freeze the game 100% of the time.
     
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  8. Apslup

    Apslup

    Feelin' Fine. Member
    Is it me or does the Carnival Night Zone Act 2 music sound like Hydrocity Act 2's music? I hear some similar sounds.
     
  9. drx

    drx

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    :rolleyes:
    https://hiddenpalace.org/w/images/0/07/Sonic_3_(Nov_3,_1993_prototype_-_LRZ1_restored).zip

    Here's LRZ1 restored from leftovers and 0408 collision data. Explanation inside but in case you can't download it:

    Code (Text):
    1.  
    2. This hack restores LRZ1 in the Nov 3 prototype.
    3.  
    4. Almost everything is restored from within the ROM,
    5. except for collision data, which is ported from
    6. the 0408 build.
    7.  
    8. Changes:
    9. $005c12 changed to 0900 - this allows you to play LRZ1 when selecting SOZ1 in the level select
    10.  
    11. $04a92e changed to 2e 1aef34 2f 1aef34 - 8x8 tiles
    12. $04a936 changed to 1c 1add54 1c 1add54 - 16x16 mappings
    13. $04a93e changed to 00 1b2ed6 00 1b2ed6 - 128x128 mappings
    14.  
    15. $04c354 changed to 000b - unlocks 3 debug mode badniks
    16.  
    17. $1cd288 changed to 00200040 - collision data
    18. $1dcf48 changed to 001ec4ce - level layout
    19. $1e95d4 changed to 001f58ea - palette
    20.  
    21. $200040 - LRZ1 collision data ported from 0408
    22.  
     
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  10. Epsilonsama

    Epsilonsama

    THE FASTEST TAPE ALIVE! Member
    Interesting but comparing it to the one on the prototype your insertion sounds a bit rough. I'm sure that could be easily fixed with time.
     
  11. Beltway

    Beltway

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    When compared to the other final zone music of the other Genesis games I somewhat understand the "lack of endgame feel" complaints for beta/PC Launch Base. Scrap Brain, Wing Fortress, Death Egg (S2), Puppet Panic Act 2, and Titanic Monarch I'd say all firmly plant their feet into a territory of either being serious or having some element of thrilling finality, with how they are composed and how they sound. Meanwhile I think Metallic Madness (Present/Bad Future), Death Egg (S&K), and Puppet Panic Act 1 have some playful energy in their melodies but generally have dramatic instrumentation so they still sound forewarning. And the final Launch Base has a different approach altogether of uneasy dread; limited/short melodies and instruments occasionally interrupted by by breakpoints of either odd samples or dead air, before continuing on like nothing happened.

    But with all that said--I do think when listened to outside the above context of existing final Sonic zone themes, the beta/PC establish a different "endgame" feel that fits the progression of the game. The triumphant soundfont and upbeat melody that Act 1 sets give the track the feeling of a positive endgame scenario--less "this is the final challenge, stay on your toes, watch out for danger!" of other final zone themes, and more "we're almost won, don't give up, you can do it!" Meanwhile Act 2's melody I think hits that sweet spot of having a relaxed, end of day atmosphere--imagine if you're going through Launch Base, but the sky has changed to orange and you could see the sun setting on the horizon. That's the mood Act 2 establishes, at least for me.

    I will say this--I think someone in the thread compared the beta/PC Launch Base tracks to Sky Sanctuary, in the sense that it wasn't the final zone for Sonic & Knuckles (at least for Sonic/Tails's story) but it did establish a feeling that you're nearing the end of the adventure. I think that's a pretty good comparison.
     
  12. Blastfrog

    Blastfrog

    Frog blast the vent core! Member
    So, if the MJ music was put in after the scandal, and MJ refused credit, does that mean if he didn't refuse credit they would've had his name publicly attached to the product in spite of the controversy? Or did they initially cut it like Howard said back in 2005 and they brought it back because he refused credit? This is pretty dark to think about, actually.
     
  13. Apslup

    Apslup

    Feelin' Fine. Member
    Ok, sorry if this has been posted earlier (I'm still in the process of going through the thread) but I have a theory revolving around the Drop Dash and Taxman's claim that including it in Mania was a coincidence. When creating the iOS remake of Sonic CD, we know that Taxman had access to cut content and design documents from at least Sonic CD and Sonic 2.

    When it comes to R2 (the scrapped second level of Sonic CD featured in the ending credits animation), we know that Taxman had access to design documents regarding the level, since he posted about it in a thread back in 2013 (the image of the design document used to be visable in his post but it won't load for some reason, but it can still be seen in the R2 wiki page).

    https://forums.sonicretro.org/index...-nintendo-consoles.26302/page-158#post-733117
    http://info.sonicretro.org/R2

    There is also the fact that Taxman also intended to create a brand new level for the Sonic CD remake called Desert Dazzle that was based off of the scrapped level Dust Hill Zone from Sonic 2. This level would go onto be the basis of Mirage Saloon Zone in Mania, even reusing some of the graphics.

    http://info.sonicretro.org/Desert_Dazzle

    If Taxman (and by extension the Mania team) had access to this sort of unreleased information about Sonic 2, it isn't a far stretch of the imagination to assume that they had access to more of this sort of info from other games. They could have seen the Drop Dash from these early builds of Sonic 3 and thought that it would be a good idea for Mania, since Mania is supposed to be a celebration of Classic Sonic afterall.

    I'm not calling Taxman a liar, this is just speculation on my part.
     
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  14. Overlord

    Overlord

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    (whew, finally got to the end of this thread...) An absolutely incredible finish to Sonic Month, and one I'm glad I got to see unfolding live (I did miss a tiny chunk of CNZ1, but thankfully nothing major).

    Sonic 2 sprites, and new Knuckles sprites! New level layouts, and palettes! The drop-dash being present! The fucking PC version's music! Hidden Palace has done an outstanding job with all of this and I thank everyone involved so much for their hard work and releasing all the toys out for everyone to play with.

    I also look forward to that full set of VGZ rips =P
     
  15. Diablohead

    Diablohead

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    It's sort of a shame that most of knuckles sprite were already converted over by this point, i'd love to see more frames in the 'sonic 2' style
     
  16. Flare

    Flare

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    This has been speculated a few times, but he is likely under agreements not to disclose stuff. If it were true he’d more likely to stay quiet on the matter.

    Better to stay in Sega's good books than spread around any inclination that Sega has given him access to design documents they haven’t made public themselves.
     
  17. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    About my only problem with the beta/PC music is that they loop way too fast in most cases compared to the rest of the soundtrack and don't quite have the "sound range". Maybe due to being incomplete, but it makes them sound real divorced from the rest of the main game soundtrack, like how Competition songs felt like they're a different composer. Then again the MJ songs stood out like a sore thumb too so I guess it's only natural.
     
  18. The autodemo seems to botch the initial spindash input and that's why the entire thing fails to complete. How hard would that be to fix? Anyone? Beyond my capabilities but if someone's poking around here's a free idea.
     
  19. Sir_mihael

    Sir_mihael

    DON'T TRUST THIS MAN Member
    Phew, yeah I got nothing to add that hasn't been covered already. This has been a real treat. Haven't been hyped over Sonic 3 stuff like this in a good while. Hot damn. Been listening to the Beta tracks on loop for a good while now!
     
  20. Travelsonic

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    Caution for people who will inevitably mess around in Debug Mode: placing certain objects Lava Reef will cause the game to lock up.