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Sonic Month 2019: Sonic 3

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Agobue


    For reference, here are the tracks from the PC Collection using General MIDI:

    Carnival Night, Act 1:

    Carnival Night, Act 2:

    Ice Cap, Act 1:

    Ice Cap, Act 2:

    Launch Base, Act 1:
  2. Agobue


    Launch Base, Act 2:
  3. Sinclair Strange

    Sinclair Strange

    I just want to throw my two cents into the discussion about the music. I actually believe the MJ/BB tracks were added quite late into the mix as if you notice, CNZ, ICZ and LBZ have very different/changed act 2 versions keeping in line with the rest of the game's audio. Where as if you look at MJ/BB music, the act2 tracks are basically just channels getting turned off/on to create the illusion of an act 2 variation. Just something I've noticed.

    (Also I might as well edit this, Ice Cap Zone in this sounds an awful a lot like Crystal Egg Zone from Sonic 2 SMS)
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  4. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo

    Loopin' around. Member
    What I found funny is that even the unused S&KC track is present in this proto. And apparently later, it was replaced with Michael Jackson's Mini-Boss Theme.
  5. Xilla


    I fail to understand....I begin to see! Member
    My own feeling on it was that it was supposed to be the ending theme, for the cutscenes where Sonic returns from space and Angel Island is seen rising (plays Sky Sanctuary in S3&K). When the game was split that became redundant and it's slot was given to MJ Act 1 boss theme.

    The ending fanfare as heard in final Sonic 3 I believe is Track 31 in the sound test, which is not present in the proto and plays the ring sound (which is duplicated in 32).
  6. Epsilonsama


    It doesnt feel like an ending theme IMO and I liken its used as a Super Sonic theme like in Sonic 3 Complete. It's too energetic and those feel like a Super Sonic music more than an ending music.
  7. Gryson


    Can someone explain to me, uninformed as I am:

    If there is some legal issue related to the music preventing S3&K from being re-released, then why is it currently for sale on Steam?

    I mean, it's difficult to believe that Sega would include music in their flagship property that they didn't own the complete rights to, but I guess it's possible. However, if they were concerned about a copyright violation, there is no way that I can see to explain the continued sale of the game.

    Edit: After reading more about it, I think I understand the possible situation better.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  8. Endgame


    Formerly The Growler Member
    Do you think we'll get to see a Sonic & Knuckles prototype version? I certainly hope so!

    I wonder if they'll use the same sprites for Knuckles as this prototype, or whether they'd changed it since then? I know S&K was delayed (or should I say, was split into two) because of the McDonald's promo, so I wonder if it gave them more time to work on this one more than Sonic 3?

    Actually, if you look closely at the shape of Knuckles' right hand, you can tell he's telling him to stop (or "you shall not pass") - before 'egging' him on :V
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  9. Tanks


    None of us are lawyers here, but the speculation has been that whatever's in the Sonic 3 ROM is a done deal. "Sonic 3" exists as a property all its own.

    That said, we know there's some sort of dispute over what I'm assuming is pay/royalties by a member of the Sonic 3 sound team that has been ongoing. This is what is likely making Sega skittish of revisiting S3&K in remake-form, with the exception for whatever references they can make in other media (Angel Island's theme in Smash since it's Jun composed, Sky Sanctuary in Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed, etc.) I forget who confirmed it on here, but it's an issue best dropped as it's part of said person's personal life and not worth a community of obsessed nerds upsetting that applecart.
  10. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    I'm guessing it's because of mystic cave rules. If you manage to find your way down there you're fucked so you might as well have a way to die to get out.
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  11. Chainspike


    Stealing rings since 1994 Member
    Death Egg Zone
    S3C Delta
    For those of you who have not seen it yet, Launch Base Act 1's unused underwater palette:
    In the final version of S3 there was code to handle water in LBZ1, as well as this prototype. However, the water appears to have been removed from this build, although the palette still exists!
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  12. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    bed 'n' breakfast Wiki Sysop
    Northumberland, UK
    Wiki and Minnie's Runaway Railway
    20 years ago and someone would have given this a name and a backstory.

    (revert from Super Sonic, go underwater)
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  13. BlazeHedgehog


    A "Community Enigma"? Oldbie
    Personally, this works as a Sky Sanctuary theme for me.
  14. DaveDave


    Not sure if it's been mentioned, but the 2nd tech demo for the Special Stage looks a lot like the level layout of the 8th special stage that is unused in the final Sonic 3.
  15. SuperSonicRider


    It uses the Sonic 3 proto theme when playing Sonic 3 on the PC collection, and the Sonic & Knuckles theme when playing Sonic & Knuckles or Sonic 3 & Knuckles. So the S&K theme will play for S3 level encounters if you are playing S3&K.

    It is interesting that, for the final S&K release, they bothered to change Knuckles' theme instead of using the S3 proto theme, because the midboss theme did revert to something that was previously established, though they just slapped it over the S3 midboss / S3 proto unused song slot (2E) rather than reassigning it to slot 18, meaning that in S&K and S3&K, there are two copies of the midboss track.
    I don't have much knowledge when it comes to digging into these games technically, so someone please please correct me if I'm wrong about this as this all comes only from observation & testing things, but I believe the only official release of S3, S&K, or S3&K where 2E isn't used to play the midboss track is Sonic & Knuckles Collection for the PC where 18 is used, like with this prototype.

    I wonder what the original intent for 2E must've been. I am in camp "probably the Super theme"; it definitely sounds like a "power up" track and is also located pretty close to the invincibility theme in Sound Test (2C) - but unlike mostly every other time Super Sonic has playable in this manner (S2, Colors, Lost World, Mania; Sonic 4 is an exception), it doesn't use any motifs from the main theme song as far as I can tell. But by this point Sonic 2 was the only other point of comparison, so I don't know, that may not actually mean anything. I'm just overthinking really! :)

    One last random thing. When Knuckles appears at least in the intro (haven't looked in-depth at other instances of 1P mode but it's probably also the case), he uses his final playable character palette, including his fur color. But in competition mode, he uses the final "cutscene Knuckles" palette for his fur, which is a little pinker than player Knuckles. I don't really know what conclusion to draw from that, just thought I'd point it out.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  16. LockOnRommy11


    Sound 2E is confusing. It’s not in the final game, but is an unused track in the PC version too. In the Sonic 3 MegaDrive final release this slot is occupied by the “c’mon!”miniboss theme that was ultimately scrapped in S&K and the PC releases.

    So the PC release seems to not only swap tracks around in the sound test, but also re-adds the original missing 2E theme that still goes unused... isn’t that a bit weird?

    Do the sound test slots on the PC version conform to the same order as this prototype? Is there anything else about the PC version that stands out from the MD version?
  17. RikohZX


    The funkiness with the PC version's music "re-adding" things in particular almost makes it sound like it was based off of beta code and assets and then mishmashed into the final version of the game without the MJ/Buxer assets to change everything proper.
  18. Aesculapius Piranha

    Aesculapius Piranha

    つづく Oldbie
    Basically if it made it into the S&K Collection PC release as a midi, then MJ didn't touch it. It seems fairly certain at this point MJ's partnership with Sega was short lived and capricious. I am now interested in what occurred. I mean, why didn't Dreams Come True come back for 3? Before I had imagined maybe Sonic Team had planned for bigger talent from the start with their own talent filling in the gaps, but that seems to not be the case. Sonic CD was kind of their big multimedia venture at the time, so was this kind of a competitive whim as old Sega was known for where they heard how the new game sounded and didn't want to be outdone? Or did DCT bail and they were looking for talent and found it in the biggest pop name in the world? Or did they just give up on pop stars and MJ just fell into their lap because he was a big kid who wanted to be in Sonic?

    I mean, really, there are a lot of things that could have gone on, and it all seems kind of interesting.
  19. Blastfrog


    See ya starside. Member
    Dunno if anyone else has pointed this out, but the ring sound effect only plays on the right channel instead of alternating.

    Likely wanting to avoid paying high royalties, Masa demanded more and more each time.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  20. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

    Virginia, USA
    Paying off student loans
    The story as I heard it was that DCT had become a bigger deal after Sonic 2's release, and for Sonic 3 Nakamura was asking for more money, which Sega was unwilling to pay.
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