Sonic Month 2019: Sonic 3

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by drx, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. Prototype


    Still, we don't know much about the contracts themselves, so we don't know what wacky garbage they agreed to. And in regards to Buxer it's possible that he implemented Hard Times for ICZ thinking that the song would never be technically released, but that he screwed up in that his label might have still held the rights to that. When you're playing a game of musical telephone between East/West and some pretty major record labels it's entirely possible that a lot of these issues simply stemmed from miscommunication and everyone sort of just had to go with it, with the proviso that future fuckery is out of the question lest lawyers get involved and money has to be paid. Cirocco DID say that SEGA owed a lot of money to a lot of people, and they could just be hanging in there on the aforementioned proviso and good faith agreement.

    You know, given the history between Sony (who owned MJ's catalogue) and Paramount Pictures...

    ..and the upcoming Sonic movie with Paramount, with my very limited knowledge of business deals and the shady characters who run said businesses, is it possible that they could have resolved certain rights issues by a simple transactional deal between SEGA and Paramount?

    I mean, I doubt this last part because it doesn't make much sense, but with the ever-changing hands of business, who knows what contracts, handshakes and agreements are still valid these days?
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  2. LockOnTommy11


    Well we already know that IceCap was from somewhere else, Carnival Night’s music is basically Jam, and the end credits ended up being Stranger in Moscow.

    The digitised voices in Launch Base and the miniboss theme (go, woo, c’mon) are soundfonts available elsewhere, so whilst they’re not built from scratch, perhaps MJ / his team hold the rights to the compositions?

    It’s all very odd. The miniboss theme situation is definitely weird - it didn’t even survive the move to Sonic 3 & Knuckles, let alone PC collection.
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  3. Kama


    Sittin on my Bench, Watchin the sunset. Member
    Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania
    Becoming a freelance artist and writer
    I haven't been this excited since the Nick Arcade prototype was dumped! ^^

    Sonic's new (or old) swinging animation looks slightly strange but I find it rather charming honestly. The look on his face kinda says "Not too sure if this was a good idea" which injects some personality into him. Contrast with the final animation where he's staring ahead with those dead eyes while slightly moving his feet like a mannequin. Then again I was never a fan of his Sonic 3 model...

    When my folks snagged me the PC collection of Sonic and Knuckles back in 98 (My genesis recently went kaput), I would have never thunk those "crappy midis that replaced the old awesome music" were in fact, the originally intended scores! Hell, the genesis compositions have a certain oomph the midi's lacked. I especially dig Launch Base 2, which is a much better tune compared to the first act. On the other hand...Proto knuckles theme sounds like a rejected Team Rocket tune and I simply can't accept anything but Hard Times in my Icecap...

    The background for Hydrocity Act 1 is quite interesting, though in definite need of polish. What would it have looked like if they finished all the graphics I wonder?

    Looks like they went with the complete opposite approach with bosses compared to 2. Flying Battery is an utter mess but them bosses? Operating as intended! Not mention the Sandopolis Golem...

    All in all, a groundbreaking find! Well done, drx!
  4. Laura


    Brightened Eyes Member
    That could just be because the dev team wanted to justify Sonic and Knuckles by putting new (technically old but you get the point) music in or just preferred the older miniboss theme when putting SAK out. Doesn't necessarily have anything to do with copyright when releasing SAK.

    The S3 invincibility theme was also changed in SAK, and we know that had nothing to do with copyright because they would use it in Sonic Drift 2 a year later. It also sounds nothing like the MJ team music.
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  5. SuperSnoopy


    I like Sonic Advance Member
    Lyon, France
    Improving my art and studying Japanese
    I wonder if the Sonic Mania team were told in advance about the drop dash (probably by Iizuka), or if they came up with a similar ability by sheer coincidence.
    I mean, it does seem weird that they never talked about it being a scrapped Sonic 3 move during any prerelease interview. That's the kind of shit that would've amazed Sonic nerds like us.
  6. Prototype


    I dunno if this has been mentioned yet, but the pushable rock in AIZ final is just a breakable rock in this build. Does the pushable rock at least exist in the code? On that note, FBZ obviously doesn't have the pushable spike set in a level (because there isn't really a level yet) but at least in this build the FBZ spikes aren't animated, nor do they give you damage. Hardly surprising. FBZ is almost nonexistent.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  7. Toothpick


    Who knew the key to making the Sonic & Knuckles Collection tracks sound their best was making them sound like Ristar music.

    I can't stress enough how much of a bombshell this Sonic 3 prototype was. It's not a Sonic 1 prototype, but honestly I'm just as much happy with this. Thanks to everyone who was involved.
  8. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo

    Loopin' around. Member
    Sonic 3 Proto:
    Sonic 3 Final (Alone / &K):

    Just a weird comparation but - why in the Hell they added spikes in a place were you can't even acess? It's in Carnival Night Act 2, by the way.
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  9. Prototype


    Don't underestimate the nefariousness of Robotnik's death traps, dude. The manual WARNED YOU.
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  10. LockOnTommy11


    In all honesty it’s actually probably not far off that - I imagine the spike placement could be to ensure the player dies if they accidentally get warped through the wall, which does sometimes happen in certain places.

    There’s a couple of points on carnival night where you get crushed rather than stuck and I have the feeling that they might have edited the level in some places to do that specifically.

    I can’t remember the locations tbh, it’s been years since I got stuck and deviated from the paths I know well.
  11. Laura


    Brightened Eyes Member
    One thing which really throws a spanner into the development timeline is the Knuckles' theme.

    So in the early prototypes, Knuckles has a unique theme (and it sounds pretty great) and then the MJ team replace it with a new theme. Okay, fair enough.

    Then when they make SAK, they end up replacing the MJ Team's Knuckles theme with a new one rather than using the original prototype theme, which is different to what they did with the miniboss theme in SAK. Strange decision, but okay; maybe they just didn't like the prototype Knuckles' theme.

    But then when porting the game to PC, they use the prototype Knuckles' theme and when porting to Saturn (Sonic Jam released only a few months later) they use the MJ Team's Knuckles theme and the new SAK Knuckles theme. What is even going on?

    I really think this supports my theory that something wrong happened with the PC port of SAK Collection. Either they got wrong information or were sent an incomplete build of the game that used the prototype music. As far as I know, Knuckles' theme in SAK would be no harder to make as a MIDI than the other tracks because it uses no voice samples.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  12. Lurker


    sleep Member
    The attract mode replay will sometimes desync slightly so Sonic survives the badnick and goes further. First I thought it was just an emulation problem but I got it to happen on real hardware too. Probably useless info but still
  13. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    it's wiki to rock a rhyme Wiki Sysop
    Northumberland, UK
    to rock a rhyme that's right on time it's wiki
    It begins.

    Though it'll take a while to end. There's probably loads of things missing.
  14. Shakidna


    Rehash Rampage Member
    They used both the S&K and the S3 prototype theme:
  15. Epsilonsama


    We are not worthy! This release is amazing and I never, ever imagined that the PC music was the original nor that Sonic 3 had a form of the Drop Dash. To think we only need a Sonic CD prototype with R2 and Sonic 1 prototype for all the Holy Grails of Sonic development to be dump.
  16. RDNexus


    Is it possible that R2 never left the drawing board, only remaining in the code as a placeholder until they made the final decision?
  17. Tanks


    Super jarring, but going back to Sonic 3 Complete's approximations makes me realize how close we were on some of these. Valleybell's LBZ Act 1 is almost right on the money for instrumentation, but there's no way any of us could have imagined CNZ... The final midi we got in S&KPC just doesn't do this prototype's rendition any justice.

    What a god damn find guys.

    Wow. :psyduck:
  18. Epsilonsama


    A man can dream, who would have imagined we would have a Sonic 3 prototype before the Split with Sonic 3 & K PC Collection music?

    Indeed, but I gotta give it to Valleybell's better instrumentation. The Prototype instruments are certainly a bit rough around the edges.
  19. Laura


    Brightened Eyes Member
    Interesting, I just checked the SAK PC collection, and it uses the Sonic 3 prototype Knuckles' theme in the Sonic 3 levels and the SAK' theme in the SAK levels.

    Strange it didn't use the S3 Knuckles theme like Jam did.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
  20. Ralakimus


    pretty much a dead account Tech Member
    Fun fact, the code for handling the frame reloading for the title screen is in the prototype.
    Code (Text):
    1. ROM:000035EA
    2. ROM:000035EA ; =============== S U B R O U T I N E =======================================
    3. ROM:000035EA
    4. ROM:000035EA
    5. ROM:000035EA Iterate_TitleSonicFrame:                ; CODE XREF: ROM:000033AEp
    6. ROM:000035EA                 cmpi.b  #1,($FFFFBD).w
    7. ROM:000035F0                 bne.s   locret_3606
    8. ROM:000035F2                 move.w  ($FFFFBE).w,d0
    9. ROM:000035F6                 move.b  SonicFrameIndex(pc,d0.w),d0
    10. ROM:000035FA                 ext.w   d0
    11. ROM:000035FC                 bmi.s   loc_3608
    12. ROM:000035FE                 bsr.w   TitleSonic_LoadFrame
    13. ROM:00003602                 addq.w  #1,($FFFFBE).w
    14. ROM:00003606
    15. ROM:00003606 locret_3606:                            ; CODE XREF: Iterate_TitleSonicFrame+6j
    16. ROM:00003606                 rts
    17. ROM:00003608 ; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    18. ROM:00003608
    19. ROM:00003608 loc_3608:                               ; CODE XREF: Iterate_TitleSonicFrame+12j
    20. ROM:00003608                 move.b  #2,($FFFFBD).w
    21. ROM:0000360E                 bra.w   loc_3644
    22. ROM:0000360E ; ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    23. ROM:00003612 SonicFrameIndex:
    24. ROM:00003612                 dc.b $2A, $FF, 0, 1, 2, 3, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
    25. ROM:00003612                 dc.b $A, $B, $C, $D, $E, $F, $10, $11, $12, $13, $14, $15
    26. ROM:00003612                 dc.b $16, $17, $18, $19, $1A, $1B, $1C, $1D, $1E, $1F
    27. ROM:00003612                 dc.b $20, $21, $22, $23, $24, $25, $26, $27, $28, $29
    28. ROM:00003612                 dc.b $2A, $FF
    Compare that SonicFrameIndex to the final:
    Code (Text):
    1. SonicFrameIndex:    dc.b    1,   2,   3,   4,   5,   6,   7,   8,   9,  $A,  $B, $FF
    However, this is what the frame data index looks like:
    Code (Text):
    1. ROM:0000376A TitleSonic_Frames:dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0 ; DATA XREF: TitleSonic_LoadFrame+Ao
    2. ROM:0000376E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    3. ROM:00003772                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    4. ROM:00003776                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    5. ROM:0000377A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    6. ROM:0000377E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    7. ROM:00003782                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    8. ROM:00003786                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    9. ROM:0000378A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    10. ROM:0000378E                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    11. ROM:00003792                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    12. ROM:00003796                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    13. ROM:0000379A                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    14. ROM:0000379E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    15. ROM:000037A2                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    16. ROM:000037A6                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    17. ROM:000037AA                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    18. ROM:000037AE                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    19. ROM:000037B2                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    20. ROM:000037B6                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    21. ROM:000037BA                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    22. ROM:000037BE                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    23. ROM:000037C2                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    24. ROM:000037C6                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    25. ROM:000037CA                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    26. ROM:000037CE                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    27. ROM:000037D2                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    28. ROM:000037D6                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    29. ROM:000037DA                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    30. ROM:000037DE                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    31. ROM:000037E2                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    32. ROM:000037E6                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    33. ROM:000037EA                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    34. ROM:000037EE                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    35. ROM:000037F2                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    36. ROM:000037F6                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    37. ROM:000037FA                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    38. ROM:000037FE                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    39. ROM:00003802                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    40. ROM:00003806                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    41. ROM:0000380A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    42. ROM:0000380E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    43. ROM:00003812                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    44. ROM:00003816                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    45. ROM:0000381A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    46. ROM:0000381E                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    47. ROM:00003822                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    48. ROM:00003826                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    49. ROM:0000382A                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    50. ROM:0000382E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    51. ROM:00003832                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    52. ROM:00003836                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    53. ROM:0000383A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    54. ROM:0000383E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    55. ROM:00003842                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    56. ROM:00003846                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    57. ROM:0000384A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    58. ROM:0000384E                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    59. ROM:00003852                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    60. ROM:00003856                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    61. ROM:0000385A                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    62. ROM:0000385E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    63. ROM:00003862                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    64. ROM:00003866                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    65. ROM:0000386A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    66. ROM:0000386E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    67. ROM:00003872                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    68. ROM:00003876                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    69. ROM:0000387A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    70. ROM:0000387E                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    71. ROM:00003882                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    72. ROM:00003886                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    73. ROM:0000388A                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    74. ROM:0000388E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    75. ROM:00003892                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    76. ROM:00003896                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    77. ROM:0000389A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    78. ROM:0000389E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    79. ROM:000038A2                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    80. ROM:000038A6                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    81. ROM:000038AA                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    82. ROM:000038AE                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    83. ROM:000038B2                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    84. ROM:000038B6                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    85. ROM:000038BA                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    86. ROM:000038BE                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    87. ROM:000038C2                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    88. ROM:000038C6                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    89. ROM:000038CA                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    90. ROM:000038CE                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    91. ROM:000038D2                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    92. ROM:000038D6                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    93. ROM:000038DA                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    94. ROM:000038DE                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    95. ROM:000038E2                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    96. ROM:000038E6                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    97. ROM:000038EA                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    98. ROM:000038EE                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    99. ROM:000038F2                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    100. ROM:000038F6                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    101. ROM:000038FA                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    102. ROM:000038FE                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    103. ROM:00003902                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    104. ROM:00003906                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    105. ROM:0000390A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    106. ROM:0000390E                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    107. ROM:00003912                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    108. ROM:00003916                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    109. ROM:0000391A                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    110. ROM:0000391E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    111. ROM:00003922                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    112. ROM:00003926                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    113. ROM:0000392A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    114. ROM:0000392E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    115. ROM:00003932                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    116. ROM:00003936                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    117. ROM:0000393A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    118. ROM:0000393E                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    119. ROM:00003942                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    120. ROM:00003946                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    121. ROM:0000394A                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    122. ROM:0000394E                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    123. ROM:00003952                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    124. ROM:00003956                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    125. ROM:0000395A                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    126. ROM:0000395E                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    127. ROM:00003962                 dc.l ArtKos_TitleSonic0
    128. ROM:00003966                 dc.l Pal_TitleSonic0
    129. ROM:0000396A                 dc.l MapEni_TitleSonic0
    The data for the others frames do not seem to exist.
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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