Sonic Megamix

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Stealth, Jul 8, 2015.

  1. jman2050

    jman2050

    Teh Sonik Haker Tech Member
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    That's not his problem, honestly. If someone wants to ask for donations for whatever reason then they're well within their right to do so and they don't need to justify that course of action to anyone. If people don't want to pay then they won't pay, simple as that.
     
  2. Felik

    Felik

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    Well when people found out about Nitemare's (Sonic XG) patreon they were furious.
     
  3. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Sonic Mania, HCGE, Sonic Megamix, SonED2, [...]
    This part, in particular, was a bit rude to add to my thread, given that I (or anybody else currently in Team Megamix) never said that it was the best thing ever, isn't it? :P

    I don't think anybody will be all that impressed with "Sonic 1 Megamix" anymore if they're not trying to be. All the good stuff is in "Sonic Megamix", but I don't really even care who's done what; I'm just trying to make a game. People can like or dislike it however they want

    See previous paragraph (immediate, not both) :P

    Not sure how that's my problem any more than what jman responded to... I don't recall leading people's hate on it (in fact, I didn't know it even existed) :P

    I actually only recall ever having brought this up once ("I can't do this all the time because it doesn't make me money", which is just plain true; stuff gets in the way), unless you count the time that I responded to an article about somebody running coin-op Megamix in an arcade by saying something like "If anybody deserves to make money off the game, it's the people who made it", with a definite inclusion of the "if" part

    As for my Patreon, it's for all of my projects. Other people do stuff without starting a patreon campaign, sure, but I'm not those people so I'm not necessarily in their situation, whatever it is. I have a lot of stuff to do that's not really getting done, and there are other people besides me that want some of it done. If you were to read my Patreon page, you'd see that my primary project is HCGE, with some commercial games, and some other stuff I'd like to do as sort of disclosure on what else is going on so I can still do other fun things and maybe not get yelled at. Working other jobs, I never have the kind of time I need to be able to put the most into any of these projects, so they just get poked at and I have to consider what's less time-consuming and more immediately-beneficial to do (Ex: Do you recall Megamix/HCGE/etc making any progress during the time I was on contract for Sonic 1 and Sonic 2? You don't normally get to have notable side-work in that kind of profession; not to mention that I spent like over four months pissing off just trying to be totally available because I was anticipating the contract signing, which took forever)

    All I'm doing is asking people who care that much if they want to help me get more things done. People can donate because they want to see HCGE go forward, they can donate because they like my fan stuff; I like doing and am going to do both, ultimately. Technically nobody has to pay anything; if I get enough people to sustain me, everybody who doesn't want to contribute can just sit back and wait for the good stuff to roll in at someone else's expense. If the Patreon isn't successful enough, though, everybody will just have to wait (maybe a lot) longer just because I have to survive. If I (and my team, for that matter) were unrestricted by other obligations, Megamix might be finished now. HCGE might be super-badass already, who knows what else. I just do have those obligations, and that's life. There are people who are getting impatient and people who are just disappointed; I'm giving them another option. Not twisting their arm or anything, but it's there. You decide not to contribute, you have that option, and if others pick up the slack, you won't even "suffer" for it because this is all about my availability. Sonic Megamix is free, Mega Man Triple Threat is free, HCGE is free if your game isn't commercial. For the work I'd be putting in even if I wasn't supported full-time by Patreon, I'd say that's pretty generous... In fact, the work I'm doing right now is more for goodwill than anything since even if my patrons had been charged already (which they haven't), I'd only have gotten $64, which isn't enough to justify spending all day every day on this stuff indefinitely; what's left of my reserve won't last forever

    Regarding Sonic (1) Megamix, in specific, all of my current patrons are Sonic fans, and that's probably really only because that's where I really have any exposure to speak of. People have responded to word of my Patreon campaign by asking about Megamix, some adding that its guaranteed completion is the only condition under which they'd even consider contributing. This is why I've decided to lead off with work on Megamix; I'm giving the people who took the initiative and willingly volunteered tangible assets what they want. Not sure what's wrong with that... :/
     
  4. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    tl;dr - What jman and Stealth said, regarding the Patreon; Oh, and G. Snake and Hez completely misunderstood my "set the bar" comment.

    K... I don't really NEED to be the one to step in and say something on this Patreon deal... and it really doesn't have anything to do with me, but between the fact that I've gotten about 8 hours of sleep in 3 days, and the fact that I've heard disputing over it both on and off this forum board, it bothered me enough that I decided I needed to hop off the mobile and get on the work computer because this needed to be said, and this is addressed to ANYONE up in arms over Stealth's Patreon:

    I'm not going to go too much into a rant over it because jman really hit the nail on the head... so I just want to reiterate that point. If you don't want to donate, you don't have to! Oh, and this...
    The idea that this has any relevance to justify whether or not Stealth should have a crowdfunding account is asinine. Honestly, let them be furious about that... Again, no one FORCES OR DEMANDS you to donate.

    Now onto another note, as far as the dispute re: my "set the bar" statement... are you telling me that because of the fact that other GREAT hacks have surpassed that bar... that it invalidates the fact that Megamix did set the bar previously? Never once in my statement did I say "OMG, it's still the best thing ever". I'll wait, go back and read my post... you'll clearly see that I didn't. Actually, I'll save you the trouble:

    Clearly you missed the point I was making. My point was that at the time of the last official release, Megamix DID set the bar high... and YES... plenty of hacks DO surpass it, however it still does serve as a standard bearer as to what constitutes a great hack so yea I really don't see where you think I misspoke. Many MANY subpar hacks fail to meet Megamix's quality. Those that do... range from pretty damn good to great. Sounds like a standard to me.

    Anyway, I was alluding to the fact that I simply believe Stealth and Co. WILL do just that AGAIN, with what's to come in the future. Ironically, Green Snake made that very last point in the same breath that he was also trying to dispute my very point...
     
  5. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester

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    I agree. But that was not what was said. He said it "set" the bar (past tense, which is true), not "is" the current bar.

    In fact...

    ...Megamix has passed it's own bar since too, but of course, you wouldn't know that given Megamix has not had a proper release since. The thing is, the bar can only be set by released content, most other hacks have been released post, therefore, they have set a higher bar (that's logic, expected, and common sense really), Megamix "did" set the bar, and it will set a higher bar when it is released. In my opinion, it already surpasses the current bar set by other hacks in its private state even now, and a lot of hacks being released at the current time don't really live up to what we have in store already, nevermind what we'll have in the future. So sit back, be patient, and we'll deliver eventually. Of course, donations help reduce the time of "eventually" (which is what the recent discussion of this thread is pretty much all about...).
     
  6. Felik

    Felik

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    Not sure why do you take my comment personally considering I wasn't even quoting your post. I was just bringing up a direct comparison, that's all.

    Wasn't it Tweaker back in the old days hyping up Megamix? Maybe that's why people put "overrated" label onto it now?

    Anyway I don't get where did all this "bar" talk came from. To me it sounds like people say "I'm disappointed because Megamix doesn't exceed my expectations".
     
  7. AURORA☆FIELDS

    AURORA☆FIELDS

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    I never intended to be rude exactly nor blame it on you or your team, but rather poke at the people who overhype particular works done by particular people when its not necessarily warranted.

    You sounded as if you were suggesting Megamix is more or less officially the "bar" people try and fail to reach even nowaday, but in case that was not what you meant, then I apologize for the confusion. However considering how you said your comment here, you seem to suggest that just any hack can be "the bar", as many hacks fail to meet the quality of hacks like Sonic Green Snake, LSD is bad or whatever, does that mean this now means they are also some part of "bar" or "standard" or something? Just curious considering how you worded your comment.

    Well, like any sensible person, I don't consider the leaked version as a release, but what it is; leaked, and I know by now it is probably 2 or 3 years old so a lot of progress could have been done while that, and in fact that is one of the reasons I say the bar of MegaMix has been surpassed, as I don't consider what has been done on the leaked version. And I am sure MegaMix would set the bar once again, but sooner or later something else comes along that is even better, though given that less and less people are interested in hacking, which would unfortunately mean that less and less people even attempt to go for such ambitious hacks, which of course is a shame, and I'd wish people would collaborate more on projects to make them better and more possible! But that is going fairly well off-topic so I better stop while I am ahead


    And no, I don't want to start flamewars here exactly, so I hope I don't come off as if I was trying to
     
  8. MarkeyJester

    MarkeyJester

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    Eh, I'm sure you'll enjoy what we have to offer in the end~

    EDIT: "~"
     
  9. rata

    rata

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    Well, Megamix did set the bar, and thus it has been surpassed many times, there still are hacks that can't do it. In the next release, I'm pretty sure it will set a new bar that will be really hard to surpass in hacks, especially those that can run in real hardware.
     
  10. MainMemory

    MainMemory

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    Whether Megamix "set the bar" or how other hacks measure up to it, depends on which metric you're using. Most polished? Most technically impressive? Most "Sonic-like"? Best characters? Best level design? Megamix will probably win the Hidden Palace Zone trophy if/when it gets entered in the Sonic Hacking Contest, but that doesn't mean it will win all the trophies (well, unless all the other entries suck, but that can happen any year). It also depends on who's looking at it. Some people might prefer hacks that do something radically different, and they might find Megamix boring, because it's "just another Sonic game".
     
  11. Hez

    Hez

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    I admit I didn't read the full thread, I just saw the part of 360 adding something about $30 dollars. With your current statement, I couldn't agree more as I have a LOT of prior engagements, mostly my job, and usually the community is last on my list (sorry guys). So I owe an apology there.

    I just want the hacking/fangaming community to remain free and fun. When money gets involved, its no fun anymore and it becomes a business.
     
  12. MotorRoach

    MotorRoach

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    ...what.

    It becomes a business if someone is outright demanding that you give them your money if you want to play their game. Asking for donations is a completely different story, and is entirely optional.

    Keep in mind that while people choose to work on Sonic hacks/fan games are entirely by free will, it doesn't means people are always able to work at them, and some times said people really want to keep doing that. Finances are an essential thing in pretty much living, and there are people who need help with their financial situation, because some of them literally get little free time at all. Asking for financial help from a fanbase is an understandable act, and is in no way something greedy to do. It's only a problem when people entirely limit their new content ONLY to those who donate, instead of treating it like something optional (like that guy named TomPreston).

    In Stealth's case, he had always delivered great content to the community, and donating to him is the least people could do for all that he's done. He's certainly one of a kind for all of his coding knowledge, and I honestly think he deserves what he gains. Just because he does it out of free will, it doesn't means he's forced to work on content entirely for free just for our amusement.

    Now, if you are going to tell me that that no one has the right to ask for financial help, and that helping someone out in their bills so they can deliver more content for everybody somehow ruins your "fun", then I seriously hope you never have fun again.
     
  13. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Sonic Mania, HCGE, Sonic Megamix, SonED2, [...]
    It was a little unclear, but I get you. We're cool :)

    Kinda hard not to take it personally on some level, really. I get people overhype stuff... I try very hard not to do it myself, and I generally fought against it when I had less control over it. What looks like over-criticism in compensation for excess fan hype just sort of stings since it's not necessarily our fault at this point :P

    No hard feelings, though :)

    And just to be clear, I may end up promoting it a little more due to expectation created by leaning on Patreon, but I only hope that people are able to enjoy what I'm/we're able to pump out for what it is. Of course, we've set out to make a fun and exciting game; that's all

    The "business" feel is exactly the opposite of what I'm aiming for, though. I tried to make clear on the Patreon itself that this is about the freedom to try things and be creative, which is something I otherwise wouldn't have very much control over. It's about the removal of restrictions and deadlines; I want to be able to give things the time and attention that they really need and still get things done in a relatively reasonable period of time

    I have commercial aspirations, I'll do some (original) commercial software, but I don't want to price it out of range, I don't want a paywall to bar people from making use of utilities like HCGE when they're just out for fun and not profit, and I want everybody to have access to my fan stuff. Whoever can help me do all of this helps the people who can't
     
  14. Rosie

    Rosie

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    The only bar I care about is one that sells decent gin. "Will it be good?" is the only question that needs to be answered, and since we've all already played Megamix, and it IS good, I think we can safely assume the answer to that is "Yes".

    And the Patreon isn't paying for Megamix, it's paying for Stealth to be able to put the time towards multiple projects, which happen to include Megamix. As has been pointed out, if you don't want to contribute, you don't have to.
     
  15. Hez

    Hez

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    While I agree with you on trying to get some money while you're in financial problems, I don't think its right to exploit your fan-creations because you're having hard times. That's what second jobs are for (I'm saying it here before you guys do, this stuff IS NOT a second job, its fandom).

    This is where its just plain stupid. You're putting a single person on a pedestal and acting like he deserves our money at demand. Where's Saxmans cut for all his breakthroughs in music editing? Why aren't we paying for Sonic Classic Heroes? What exactly does one do to get to that point where the community owes him?

    Bottom line is, nobody owes him, nor anybody else, ANYTHING. I will stick to my opinion that it's in bad taste to ask for money for anything. Its not wrong, its just dirty and, in my opinion, bad for the community.
     
  16. MotorRoach

    MotorRoach

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    Yeah, how DARE we donate to him out of free will? That's such a stupid thing to do! We don't owe him anything! He should continue to give us free content for free!

    You're really saying that just making Sonic Classic Heroes is the same thing as everything that Stealth has done before. Like, wow, the way you put it like, you sound against the very concept of donations to begin with.

    I'm not putting him on a pedestal and I'm not saying you should pay for his work. I'm saying that I respect the guy for what he's done and since everyone literally needs money to stay alive and/or not have a horrible time, he might as well promote himself using his creations. There is nothing wrong with that, and it is no way dirty, just because money is accepted (but not demanded), specially since he's not even tricking anyone into doing so.

    Besides, no one is going bankrupt just for giving him a spare buck every now and then, nor this is going to ruin the reputation of the community. Groups like artists do this very often, given that not everyone can simply get a second job so easily-- this goes specially to the people who WANT to keep delivering frequent content to their audience. He's not different from said people, and I for one hope I can reach a higher level of interest with my art, so I can do the same thing (finances have been a real struggle for me these days).

    If you're so concerned about it having to do with Sonic fan games, keep in mind that this isn't JUST for his Sonic content. He made it clear that he also has non-Sonic content he wants to work on.
     
  17. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Sonic Mania, HCGE, Sonic Megamix, SonED2, [...]
    I'd just like to respond to this part in particular by pointing out that I never demanded anything. I provided an option that you're entirely free to ignore (In addition, in the past, people have asked myself and others how to donate, unprovoked)

    May I be bold enough to ask how, for a single example, delaying Megamix for another 11 years is, by comparison, "good for the community"? Just don't pay anything and play it when it comes out... If other people want to donate of their own free will and generocity, that might happen sooner without you having to do a thing, not because I'm withholding anything but just because I'll actually be able to make myself available to do my part in making it so. What's to complain about?
     
  18. Atendega

    Atendega

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    I'm downright confused as to why people are complaining about having the OPTION to donate to what we all know is a good cause.
     
  19. MotorRoach

    MotorRoach

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    Fixed it for you. Literally no one else is complaining.
     
  20. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Not actually true, they're just not doing it here :P