Sonic Megamix

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Stealth, Jan 27, 2012.

  1. Tanks

    Tanks

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    I've made it a point to archive every build that's been released to the public (through one means or another <_<; ) and I'll do the same with this one, however, out of respect for the team, I don't think I'll personally be playing it. If what we're being told is true, we'll get a much mroe gratifying experience out of the last CD release than we will with this one. I've played through Megamix a few times on hardware and it stands to be a Sonic experience akin to even that of the classics (Plus, I mean, ... Its easily playable on Hardware :v:). I've known about the leak for a while now, but out of respect for the developers, I'll wait-- with my ear up to that trailer listening tot hat sweet sweet heartbeat of never canceled.
     
  2. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    That video looks so amazing, every little thing in it is just whaaaaaaaaat

    It's sad that there's people around who made that leak happen, but I'm just going to ignore it and be happy it hasn't stopped you guys from working on this. How you guys still have motivation after so many years, I will never know.
     
  3. You-Are-Pwned

    You-Are-Pwned

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    I just compared the 10th July of 2011 to the version posted by Stealth here, and the file size is different as well as (obviously) the checksums.

    Code (Text):
    1. Leak:
    2. 35,028,992 bytes - CRC32 9F724847
    3.  
    4. Stealth:
    5. 35,035,136 bytes - CRC32 7A2F8838
    Interesting how the CUE file in the Stealth version and the leak is exactly the same. From what I remember, that CUE was made by some person on a Russian forum.
     
  4. Stealth

    Stealth

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    The file size and CRC are different because I replaced the on-ISO ReadMe file with the text from the distribution post, as the text itself said. It was a specifically-targetted modification done with a hex editor. I used the same ISO from the other distribution, and included the same cue file
     
  5. You-Are-Pwned

    You-Are-Pwned

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    Ah okay, that makes sense then. :P
    But indeed the build is very incomplete and some stages are missing proper layouts.
     
  6. Puto

    Puto

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    Part of Team Megamix, but haven't done any actual work in ages.
    What else were you expecting from an obviously incomplete alpha build that was leaked without anybody's permission?
     
  7. You-Are-Pwned

    You-Are-Pwned

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    Nothing more than it already is, really. I was just verifying that the provided build is a really early version, and is mostly not playable, even though some new assets are already in there.
     
  8. NeonSynth

    NeonSynth

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    Got a question though. The final release will be in BIN/CUE, eh? And I hope the audio is mastered WAV instead of just MP3s then... Because most people tend to rather use MP3.
     
  9. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    Stealth I'm glad you cleared up so much in your post, but in all fairness, I feel like you and whoever else is working on this project has a serious lack of perspective. As Lanzer pointed out, fan projects like these have a high rate of failure, and large ambitious projects like these are all but guaranteed to kick the bucket, often with little to no fanfare. Considering the way the Megamix team has been handling things, anyone is perfectly sensible to assume this project died or began a quiet fade into obscurity. Your integrity as a person or team is not relevant. No one is going to hinge their hopes on the baseless assumption that you and the team are real solid guys who keep their word. From anyone else's point of view, you're just another handful of talented bums who bit off more than they could chew and got swallowed up by the complications of life after writing creative checks you couldn't cash. It's happened so many times with so many fan projects that anyone in their right mind would bet on this project biting the bullet. What closes the case on Megamix is that ever since the last official release, you've shared next to zilch aside from a couple videos that popped up around the same time some years ago. There's been no substantial progress reports, no videos, no screenshots, nothing for people to sink their teeth into. Maybe I'm wrong and there's some musty site where this has been happening, but I think I've followed Megamix closely enough that I'd be seeing these things if they were. On top of everything, the release of Megamix is slated somewhere between the dates of now and never. The perpetual countdown to infinity means nothing to people and if anything just by declaring that out loud (I'm looking at the description in that video you posted, Stealth) it makes the situation feel hopeless like the team has given up or doesn't care anymore and time is irrelevant at this point. You've inadvertently crafted a presentation over the course of several years that sends all the signals of a doomed project. This could be cured just by doing something as simple as having a screenshot posted somewhere every week or two. Doesn't even need to spoil anything, could just be a random shot of a level. Now that you've put up that trailer, you have a lot of room to do that. I'd highly consider it if you'd like people to stop feeling like Megamix is dead and gossiping that it is as a result.
     
  10. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Sorry, but I just don't see why everyone else's shortcomings should be my responsibility. It is a question of my own personal integrity, and I can't help but take it personally after all I've actually done, especially when these assumptions about why, when, and how my projects get cancelled despite how, when, and why I say they're not lead to people stealing and distributing source codes and private development builds under the delusion that it somehow makes it right even if it were true. That is a big factor in why we are where we are at this very moment, after all, considering previous incidents and the fact that this attitude has a lot to do with why this has gone as far as it has after the initial leak

    Constant regular progress updates? I'm sorry, but are we being paid to do this? Do we have absolutely no responsibilities? Can we really, consistently make the kind of progress that would justify committing to doing that? I don't know how many times I have to keep telling people that I don't like to talk about and especially make an exposition out of half-baked ideas. I don't know when it suddenly became a bad thing to not want to overstate yourself, but apparently it has. I took on the project, and after all of the hype I've had thrust upon me by previous lead team members and having to deal with crap like this, I said only "we're going to finish it", and have made no unfounded claims about it. I've shown videos of real progress, not half-blank, clunky, half-assed whatever along with a statement about what I'd make it do if I were SuperGod. Personally, I wasn't even terribly comfortable with the teaser I just released, but there it is, and at least those things actually exist and aren't entirely unpolished

    We want to make a well-polished, well-featured game that still has the potential for real "wow" factor when the final release build is finally ready to be played. We are not psychic, and we could not foresee just how long this would take. If it were entirely within our power, we would have had this finished and released years ago, but things happen, and things keep happening, and we were kept from doing that. We don't need you or anyone else constantly reminding us how much that sucks

    By the way, "years"? Check the March 9th 2013 update to teammegamix.com and my corresponding tweet. Were you keeping up with Megamix then? I practically said "BRB guys, working for SEGA" to the extent that I could without breaking NDA, and that fact was made explicit shortly after. In fact, the first time I pretty much said "BRB working for SEGA" was actually on October 2nd 2012, also referenced on my twitter. If you're not keeping up with us, then you're not "keeping up with Megamix" as well as you'd like to think, and that combined with the fact that you still felt compelled to say this seems pretty telling of your attitude toward us

    We're not responsible to anybody for our hobbies, how we do them, and when we are and aren't capable of doing them, and I resent the notion that we should have to be. We are trying to have fun, and being constantly scrutinized, criticized, and in fact outright abused in some instances is not fun. I don't know what standard you're trying to say that we should be held to, but it's certainly not a reasonable one

    This is what I was saying as a general statement toward the people who are actually making this a real issue, and I didn't realize that I actually had to completely spell it out
     
  11. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

    A wise guy eh. I know how to DEAL with wise guys. Member
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    You're correct, you most certainly do have the right to do things exactly as you're doing them. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. You seem to be clueless as to why people are thinking Megamix is dead, and you're complaining that people are talking like it is and going so far as to spread a leaked build. No one should have to spell it out, but I gave a decent explanation above. Basically, if you want things to continue as they are, keep doing things the same way.

    That's why I said next to zilch. A couple brief posts like that is not going to turn things upside down for the huge audience that have just about determined this project is going nowhere, who have began scattering like a crowd leaving the stands having waited ages for the curtain open, a little sign popping up saying "the actors had to leave for now" is not going to turn people around, if anything the few people who see it will likely feel all the more that things aren't really going anywhere. You don't want to be scrutinized or criticized? What did you expect? This is undoubtedly the greatest hack of all time and people have been waiting on the edge of their seats for years. Of course that's going to happen when you're encouraging it by starving the public of information and having this attitude that you don't owe anyone anything.

    I'm going to be frank, I hate that mentality of "we're not being paid to do this we don't have to do squat for you". It's very unbecoming of a developer regardless of circumstances. All it does is scream "we don't give a shit about this and the only thing keeping us going is guilt and prayers so be damn grateful we're doing this at all". When it comes from the developer's mouth like that, it sounds spiteful and implies the developer hates what they're doing and couldn't give a shit less about the audience that has showed so much love and interest in the developer's work. It's like sharing something wonderful that gives people something to hope for, then after a long time of letting that hope stagnate, spitting in their faces when they question what's happening. The audience is left unable to respond because, yep, you're right, you don't have to do anything for anyone, who can argue that, so everyone regrets bringing it up and resigns to expecting nothing again. Morally speaking, I consider the substantial reveal of a project a form of promise, especially if you've progressed far and shared demos and videos and built hype for something people love. The least you can do is make people feel like this is something you care about instead of making people feel like you're trudging along out of sheer obligation and damned be anyone who is so ungrateful as to request updates. Doing something just because you have the right to doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

    So if you don't find it fun to be scrutinized, criticized, and abused, maybe consider a more positive strategy. You can do that without compromising the fun of development.
     
  12. RetroKoH

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    Can we all just drop this? I think Stealth has done WAYYYY more than he needs to do to prove that this isn't dead. He linked everyone the leak himself to put that shit to bed, and gave us all an awesome trailer that makes me want to play this hack even more when it is done.
    Let's remind you all that this is a fucking hobby... just as MainMemory with his awesome array of hacking tools, Tiddles and S3Complete, flamewing and Classic Heroes, etc.

    WHO CARES IF MEGAMIX IS DEAD OR ALIVE? If it was dead, which it isn't... then we got a damn good game out of the last official release...
    Otherwise, we will get it when it is time.

    It's not life or death people.

    Now, if this were a matter of SEGA, Stealth and Taxman outright confirming that we were getting S3K for iOS and then giving not even a screenshot for years... just quietly sweeping it under the rug, then everyone has a right to bitch. Otherwise... all this talk of integrity and bullshit needs to go out the fucking window. It's game modding... a hobbyist activity at best surrounding a mythical blue hedgehog. You want a Sonic hack that badly? Many of us are also able enough to make our own. Let's get the fuck over ourselves, shall we?

    I respect your opinion... but I would have the EXACT same mindset if I were in their shoes. Unless this shit pays my bills or puts food on mine and my wife's plate, it ain't my top priority either.
     
  13. Stealth

    Stealth

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    Then let me spell this out to you. Hyping Megamix was not my choice. If I absolutely must bring names into this, and I resent you for making me do it, it was Tweaker who was insistent on getting the word out and hyping people up about this game. I personally hated the idea of making all of those claims and promises, and we actually got into several fights over the fact that things like that would happen while I was away and without me being consulted even though I was not only supposed to be a respected member of the team, but also someone who supposedly had the same level of power and authority over the project as Tweaker. If you keep as close of an eye on Megamix as you think you do, then you would know that this had gone on to the point where it became absolutely impossible to convince anyone that anyone other than Tweaker ever had anything to do with the project at all, even when he regretted that fact and tried to remedy it. The only other times this happened was when the source was leaked, when extenuating circumstances removed Tweaker from the project, and when a leak wouldn't go away, so don't try to pin this "you did this to yourself" garbage on me. I tried everything I could to conduct this project with more subtlety, to not be boastful, and to not string people along any more than was absolutely necessary to keep shit from going south

    If it were entirely up to me, we wouldn't have updated this time either, because I know that it's been three years since we've shown anything off and in most of that time it's been difficult to get any work done and impossible for me to even really have anything to do with development. If we had the luxury of having ourselves and our names left in peace, I'd have just quietly let everyone go about their business having moved on and surprise them some time down the line when we finally finish the entire thing and all this anticipation and supposed need to tell everybody everything so they don't have a mental breakdown would be a total non-issue, but that's not the case. Not only were we being repeatedly called out for apparently giving up even though I spent an eternity in contract limbo and then locked down with SEGA and this did not stop when I tried to clarify what was happening to the extent that I could or when those facts were actually published, but we were also being subjected to indirect harassment and having our reputations and work slandered by this leak that occurred even though we did absolutely nothing wrong insofar as to be personally responsible for the build getting out, and which refused to ever go away. Now that we finally do say something and pretty much blow all relevant and presentable content wide open, even if it is to stem the tide of crap, that isn't good enough and I'm subjected to this? Isn't that a bit like punishing me for doing exactly what I was supposed to do? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have serious doubts that we'd be having this discussion if I had never made another reveal. You'd be doing whatever it was you were doing, blissfully unaware that this was still even in our minds and we were hiding all of our dirty little secrets from you like the hoarding evil packrats that we are, and instead of having to deal with this, I'd actually be getting more of the game done

    You've got all the time and resources in the world available to you so you don't have to care about what's paying you to live your life? That's fine for you, but I'm 35 and I live in the real world. I pay for what I own, I pay for what sustains me, and it's expensive. I have a wife, I have responsibilities. You want to know the truth? You are damned lucky that you have me to make Megamix for you. There are a lot of other things I could be spending my free time doing instead, and free time is at a premium. I don't need people to worship me. I don't even need people to be overtly grateful- it's this, it's you, being overtly ungrateful that really gets me. I don't get anything from you, yet I don't need anything from you except a lack of your attitude of entitlement to what I have to offer. I can have fun with this without you saying word-one to me, but the minute you start telling me how I'm supposed to live my life to please you or how I have to go out of my way to constantly appease you and everyone else, that is when it's not fun. It is what you are doing now that makes me feel spiteful, and indeed, begin to feel that I hate what I'm doing, and wish that I didn't give a shit

    What you are attempting to impose on me is the obligation that you want to make me feel. Under normal circumstances, I do it for fun and after a point, out of respect for the project. On occasion, it is knowing how well-received my hard work and vision will be when it is finished that motivates me. If I were being generally spiteful, and I felt that I was being obligated to continue by other forces, would it not stand to reason that I spite those forces by shirking my obligation?

    If you were someone who assumed that we had cancelled and were offended because you were one of the ones who quietly kept the thought to themselves and never propagated it or complained about it, then we have the problem of mis-communication. If you did want to complain about it unprovoked, and you honestly feel this way, then we have a real problem
     
  14. ShadowsofYesterday

    ShadowsofYesterday

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    I must admit a while back I watched all the videos of the leak and even downloaded it to try it out myself. I was intrigued to get some sense of the direction of the project since 2008's 4.0b, as I believe many people have been. I knew already that the leak was horribly outdated and incomplete, but I just wanted to check it out. But when I did play it, it didn't take long before I said "You know what? This is a very obvious test build, and not something the developers would want to put out as the final product. I'll just wait for the real thing."
    Well that's Megamix. You can't go into it expecting typical Sonic level design, because it's not. Megamix level design has always been extremely cluttered, especially as of 4.0b. I imagine it has to be, to accommodate so many different characters and their different playstyles.

    I'm sure a part of that also is the fact that it's not really finished yet, and there's still plenty of polish-work to do.
    As someone who has been silently working on my own rom hack for years now since the last public release, I can definitely understand and respect this mindset. Sure, it's probably good to have some degree of hype, or even just drop the name every now and then so that people don't think you've forgotten about it, but how much better is it to just come back one day with something on an entirely different level of quality from what you had before? That's the dream.

    I'm sure when it gets close to being ready for release, you'll do all the hyping you need to do. Until then, your fans aren't going anywhere. A few naysayers may give up hope or stir up drama, but I think the majority will wait as long as it takes to see Megamix complete someday.
     
  15. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    You can trivialize anything by packaging it in a larger box. Comparing this to life and death isn't a fair argument. This is a forum about Sonic hacking and these are Sonic hack matters about a Sonic hack. I'm going to take it seriously within its own world. Once you bring higher level matters into this, then you hit the logical conclusion of nothing here matters in comparison so why bother saying anything about anything or doing anything at all. You don't allow one argument about a hack, then abolish another on the grounds of "there's more important things out there than this". That doesn't work.
    Well if it isn't the classic "if you don't like it, do it yourself". This is nothing more than a trick to selectively kill criticism. You can say that about anything which renders all feedback pointless. Are the threads a hack museum for people to watch and not speak? I thought it was the place where we talk about them and give critical feedback.

    Not being top priority is one thing. It's another thing to treat it like it's the last thing on Earth you want to be doing. Thing is, if you announce a project and start sharing the progress of it, it's like forming a commitment. You build hopes and expectations for those who care about it. This commitment that you're snowballing does not observe whether or not you're being paid, because you're still doing something regardless of payment. Once you utilize the "I'm not being paid for this" argument, it attacks the audience's expectations that you formed. The right thing to do is respect your project as if pay was intangible and your progress is not dependent on it; after all, if you're not being paid, your progress is not dependent on pay, so why even bring it up? It just spites the audience to do so as it turns a labor of love into cross to bear, and now everyone has to carry your cross with you instead carrying your love with you.

    But you're right King, Stealth has made a very significant update that will help greatly, and his return from SEGA implies a return to development, at least that's what I'm gathering. All in all the present matter has been addressed.

    Now, I wrote the first half of this post above before reading your latest post, so please forgive me and just regard it as general advice instead of being directed at you. What you're saying here paints a very different picture.
    Firstly, you didn't have to say any names. You could've just said "this one guy" and your explanation would've had the same impact. I didn't make you do that. Whatever, no harm done, I don't blame anyone in this situation as it was a broad accident. Both of you had understandable approaches to the project's public presence and one was not compatible with the other's needs. I'm in the wrong for making the assumption that you've been responsible for the project's publicity. You can't be considered liable for this.

    Now slow down man, I'm not attacking you. I'm just addressing this based on what I know, and I'm passionate about the ideals I've been presenting. I'm going to drop the matter after this because now I realize there's a great deal of information I don't know about, so I have no place to argue.

    If someone shares a great project publicly then bites back after a lot of time has passed and people are questioning what's happening, that's what I was getting at. In your case you were more or less dragged into a situation you had no intention of being in, so it's understandable that you have issue with anyone feeling entitled to it when it was your intent to keep the project under wraps from day one. My sincere hope is that, despite all the circumstances and having a life, you could still reflect positively on the public and promote a feeling of care about the project without hostility. But given how things are, I agree that this hostility has a lot of warrant. I wish things had turned out better.

    If there's something I can do to help the project, I'd like to know. I can't do assembly, but I can do plenty of other things. If I'm going to have any sense of entitlement then I'll back it up with an offer to pitch in.
     
  16. Techokami

    Techokami

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    Just be patient, it's being worked on when it's being worked on, and will be released when it's done
     
  17. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    I came in this thread thinking there was a real update. I'm not interested in a leak, I want the intended release and I'm happy to wait a decade for it.

    But god, this thing has so much drama around it. Why are Stealth and the others being held to the same standards as professional devs? It's stupid as shit.
     
  18. Billy

    Billy

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    I can understand the sense of entitlement surrounding Sonic Megamix. It's been years since an official (non-leak) of Megamix came out, so I can understand why people would be hungry for any shred of information. Just look at the Half-Life 3 debacle -- people go crazy every time Valve even remotely hints at it. I am a fan of Sonic Megamix, for sure. At the same time, however, I am a software developer and I understand that it's painful to release something you're working on before its ready. By no means are the people involved with Megamix entitled to show off what they're working on. It's clearly not meant for that purpose. A lot of us make hacks and fan games with the intent to show off every little thing we change or update. We like the attention. I know because I do it too. Megamix isn't like that.

    If nothing else, I'd like to thank Stealth for actually addressing the leak, and updating us on the team's state of affairs a little bit. Even though he felt like he was forced to, he didn't have to do that.
     
  19. steveswede

    steveswede

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    There's a big difference between cluttered and varied. Currently ideas look like they have been horded in rather than eloquently placed. I'm fully aware that it isn't representative of the final product, just my current opinion on what I've recently seen.
     
  20. Rosie

    Rosie

    aka Rosie Member
    Omg you guys, dramabomb!

    Stealth, I appriciate your candidness and all the work that you and the rest of the team are doing. Megamix is a great game, and it's something that so I always point to as a paragon of the good things that this community can produce.

    Nobody has to work on Megamix, but I'm glad that people are.

    I shan't be downloading the unfinished, leaked build, but I look forward to when there is something to be shown.