@MartiusR It's interesting to me that you feel disappointment to discover the upper path is less of an advantage. For one, I don't know if that's so true. Time attacking GHZ2 at least, the upper path is the way to go. But the real reason I find it interesting is because I never cared whether it was an overall advantage or not. As long as the upper path: (1) had stuff to explore, and (2) was something you could fall off if you messed up, I was happy. Simply having the option to stay or to drop down was enough of an advantage in the highest path, imo. I don't think the levels are longer than normal. Longer than Sonic 2 zones for sure, but not Sonic 3 I believe. About equal I'd say. Where you say "it's far from something, which was considered as "great come back" of Sonic"... to me that's a surprise. Don't get me wrong, I could probably write over 100 complaints about the game, but you don't see it as a great come back? Seriously? Mania has: * perfect classic control * very decent size * excellent presentation * excellent special stages ... and most of all... --and I've got to place some more emphasis here-- most of all... * some of the series' best level designs. I don't think anyone can call subjectivity too easily on any of those points, and those points alone are enough imo. Mania has ups and downs, but it also has some parts that out-shine any other classic in the same area. It would have made sense if you had cited the large amount of rehashing, but that doesn't seem to be what bothered you. And for me, if you ignore the rehashing issue (or even if you don't) then the game itself is easily a great comeback. Studiopolis Act 1 alone nails, like, everything. Except the boss. That boss sucks. I agree, but more in Knuckles' case. Sonic 3 had way more Knuckles-only areas.
Yeah this is something very particular about Sonic game bosses. The ring system works out fine for the general level design, but when it comes to bosses, this health system ends up hurting itself bad. This is one of the reasons I was a fan of the updated ring loss system in future games, at least in terms of how it affects boss fights; every 20 rings was almost a "tier" in health. It actually made the *amount* of rings you collected more significant, as getting hit and not being able to nab all your rings again wasn't the worst thing; you could just pick up what you could and you likely had another good 2-3 hits left in you. Along with that, given how easy it is to get your rings back, getting hit is actually an advantage as it gives you "mercy frames," i.e. that post-hit invincibility. Even though this goes without saying, my favorite quote from an esport player rings true even in a platformer: "Invincibility is broken." And it is! You can cheese through a boss effortlessly just by getting hit, collecting maybe a small handful, then go to town on the enemy. That's not interesting. That's mundane. It takes away the intrigue of not just finding out how to beat a boss, but optimizing your method of beating the boss. In some cases, especially if you have a friend play Tails who can either grab all the rings for you or plow through the boss themselves, the boss becomes not a fun element of the game, but a stapled-on chore you'd rather not even exist. If you can break down counterplay to a universal science, it stops being interesting, and gets boring. It's like you're effectively doing nothing. And you don't want to be doing nothing. Some bosses, like you said, become incredibly hard if you can't collect your rings, and that becomes its own level of bullshit. I'm gonna be real, I don't mind the Heavy Gunner fight and in fact love the concept because it's flashy and cool and upbeat--its the first time we get the music for the Heavy's fights, and fits pretty much perfectly. Avoiding the red missiles and hitting the blue missiles, or rather avoid A hit B, isn't a new concept and isn't handled too poorly alone. However the critical flaw of the fight lies in not being able to get your rings. Since rings are programmed in every stage, and in an autoscrolling segment you're moving forward, it's pretty much impossible to get your rings back. This is exactly what happens in the Hydrocity Act 2 boss, which depending on your ring count is either relatively fine or a pain in the ass. Like Dark said about the Death Egg boss returning for Titanic Monarch, that boss in the original game it was from, S3K, was made easier with the insta-shield, because it not only increased your range ever so slightly but could help give you a frame of defense if you time it perfectly. While Phase 1 of the hydrocity boss is aggravating because hitting a spike once means you lose all your rings (and only get the 3 the game gives you cuz it knows you were gonna get hit), the Phase 2 part suffered from the fight on the whole just being harder to deal with. You're now SEVERELY outranged since Eggman's machine is 2X bigger than the original miniboss (or 1.5x? who knows), AND if you don't land enough hits, the original problem of the game simply stopping you from playing happens with the stupid water twirl that doesn't even seem to pull you up in this version. This fight just gets objectively worse without the insta-shield Removing that from Mania in favor of a mobility tool helps traverse level design, but severely hurts boss fights, as in S3K it was effectively Sonic's *only* defensive tool short from jumping and spindashing--two things tails and Knuckles could do, and outside of Knuckles' jump height you could argue both characters generally dealt with bosses easier thanks to their abilities, depending on the circumstance. Back to the ring loss thing in particular, though, I think both fights, the Heavy Gunner and phase 1 of Hydrocity, would be greatly improved with one mechanic change, at least for auto-scrolling segments: Getting hit in Autoscroll forces your rings FORWARD. Like this: The rings don't bounce up and/or away from you during an autoscroll segment; instead they bounce forward so you at least have a chance to grab them again. It wouldn't be "for free" because it'd be the same deal as stopping to re-grab your rings, except they're running away from you. Thing is you kinda can't stop when you're in an auto-run segment like this. Also the metal sonic boss is a hot mess that I both love and hate; the shock value was incredible but it was handled more than a little poorly. Either you get it and you love the boss / find out it's piss easy, or start loving the boss, then get frustrated and want it to stop already. For the spike wall, the solution would just be to make the rings bounce through the wall. Normally that'd be bullshit, but if you were stocked with enough rings, that shouldn't be the biggest problem. This boss also feels much nicer overall if you have the peelout and that's another reason you should just always have it with Sonic :specialed:/>
I've kept my opinion about the game for myself mostly because I expected this kind of dialogue, like thinking it isn't as good as most reviewers say is some kind of sacrilege. I also had a bad week when the game released and it was biasing my experience, so I waited for better times. Anyway... RE: Hidden giant rings. While I found more giant rings in my first gameplay than MartiusR, they were scarce when playing as Sonic. Being Tails or Knuckles made it easier, but it's quite hard to find a good amount at the beginning, plus it's also hard to remember which route to take to find the most of them the sooner possible. I've finished my 4th playthrough as Sonic alone, the first with all the emeralds before finishing, and I got the last one in SSZ2 after failing only once thanks to an unfortunate fall through a really little hole in the last special stage. RE: Classic physics. There are a lot of noticeable quirks that make this game not exactly play like S3&K, and for worse in many cases. The crushing mechanics, for example. Not that I've run into that many cases of unexpected crushing, but almost if not all of them where thanks to the engine differences. This may be the best not classic 2D Sonic ever, and it can be better than some classics at some points, but it has it's share of "unclassicness" in a bad sense. That reminds me... RE: Bosses I never liked fighting bosses, it wasn't what attracted me to play the classics, and them being easy, either on their own, thanks to the ring invenciblity, or thanks to the more usual Super Sonic advantage, was something I was thankful about. I don't like most bosses from this game, but I'm clearly having different impressions from the most I'm reading here, so I'll say the same again as I did in my previous post: there's a lot of subjectivity about their design, so cool your mind and don't let frustration control you. RE: Knuckles It's always been a pain for me to play as Knuckles, I haven't bothered playing Sonic 2 as him except to try it a bit, and I was done before finishing chemical plant, or maybe emerald hill. IMO, his jump height is too low for a game of these characteristics, so the fun should be focused on his alternative routes and hidden goodies, but yes, as someone said, it was disappointing to climb (or fly) high walls to find nothing at all. Heavy King at master Emerald is quite stupid, though. My less enjoyable gameplay experience in Mania was playing as him, so he's probably going to be my choice for the next gameplay now that I've got gud, to change that bitter impression. Not RE: Just beaten Egg Reverie as Knuckles and Tails. Knuckles' bonus scene is nice, but Tails gets Sonic's ending, so he enters the vortex but the clip shows Sonic instead. That's lame, he should've had a Knuckles equivalent. Oh, and I will still keep the rest of my impressions about the game for myself alone.
Does the same happen with the Sonic 3 & K Death Egg boss auto scroll? Granted, it's slower. I can't find a video of anyone losing rings as now everyone is to damn good.
In one playthrough, I was able to recollect some rings in the Heavy Gunner Fight, though granted got hit near the right side of the screen. As for DEZ2, I remember being able to get some rings back during that fight, but I might be remembering wrong... Also, a couple boss tips I figured out in by Knuckles run: For Studiopolis 2, Knux can sneak in an extra hit or two after each "wind phase" by just jumping off of the railing just before the wind stops and gliding into Eggman. For TMZ 1's second phase, you can hit it by jumping right before it starts to go 'up'. I was rather annoyed that the DEZ 1 boss came back to the point where I just cheesed it the first time I fought it, just to get it over with. I actually appreciate the bosses in the game where you can't do that though, especially FBZ 2 (though the aforementioned collision issue stops it short of being brilliant.)
Sonic Mania is far from a perfect game to me, but I can say the same regarding all the other games in the series. It's unnecessary to cite here all the problems of the games, because most of it have been debated to exhaustion - and many aren't even consensus among the fans. Each game in the series has its qualities, but in my personal opinion, each subsequent game has expanded a little of what made Sonic a series that I like so much - obviously ignoring Sonic 4 here. I cannot consider Mania a straightforward sequel - not because of the overall quality of the game, but for the simple fact that it reuses some classic levels (even if it ends up expanding them). For me, every new game in the series was a new experience. The fact that Mania uses old levels makes me see it "just" as a commemorative game - but when we speak of general quality and design, I would say that it certainly comes close to the level of S3&K. The downsides to the game to me would be just recycling, the lack of transitions between some levels, some bosses who seemed to run away from the "essence" of what I would expect in a Sonic game, the "sudden" and short/uninteresting closure/ending and some more punctual and trivial details. The good? Everything else. The new stages are beautiful and with new and interesting themes. Unlike some, I loved the music of all levels - maybe I just wanted the boss's music to be a bit more threatening. The gameplay is perfect for me, close enough to the originals. I loved the concept of Hard Boiled Heavies. I loved the easter eggs and several small details at certain times. I really liked the drop-dash, and I got so used to using it with Sonic that I missed it a effing lot when playing with Knuckles and Tails. I would happily pay for DLCs with new levels, even if it were more remakes from old levels - something that unfortunately will not happen. For me, it is among the best games of the franchise, so good that I consider it to be above the first two.
I really wish they had more time to do whatever it was they really wanted to with the final boss. It's pretty evident that there was more they wanted to do and we got a stripped down version of it. It ends up being just mindlessly throwing yourself at the enemy until the hit sticks. Let's be honest, how many of you even saw this move from Eggman even once? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtcl27pEMIQ
I did! I've gone down to less than 10 rings due to accidentally dashing or getting hit by Heavy King's attack a bunch of times in the start because I hate that stupid shield he has up for so long, so I spent time in the Eggman portion just collecting rings. I was surprised to see that Eggman could actually do damage had another attack (that apparently doesn't do damage) since he spends most of the time doing a mildly annoying punching attack. Never got hit by it, though. While we're on the subject of Egg Reveerie, its boss theme was the only track in the game that I didn't like. It's grown on me a bit, but I still don't really care for it.
I'm just a little dissapointed at the end of the game in general. I guess the awesomeness of Death Egg Zone and it's bosses ruined it for me. I still appreciate how the captured the feel of Sega Saturn 3D blast with Titantic Monarch, but I wouldn't consider it the best zone in the game.
Egg Reveire seemed really rushed. Unexplained boss battle (why is the Heavy King like that now? Where'd Robotniks machine come from in 2 seconds?), relatively simple battle, unused tiles, unused boss behavior, an unused egg capsule room in TM2, and the level select icon is literally that of Sonic 2's Death Egg Zone. I wonder what the zone was originally planned to be? I kinda wish this game was delayed futher so we could see it's full potential, but unfortunately they saved the Holiday release for... Sonic Forces ugh. If a Mania 2 happens I hope it has a bigger budget and has the time it needs.
Hey Egg Reverie's music is pretty dope even if it's an obnoxious Forces tie-in. Playing through this game as Knuckles on PC has reminded me of how early it blows its load. Green Hill is pretty good, but Chemical plant and Studiopolis are just fucking incredible back-to-back, then Flying Battery is pretty nice, Press Garden is great, Stardust Speedway is fucking awesome (except for the fact that act 2 is like 20 seconds long />) and then Hydrocity is well...act 1 is kinda slow and act 2 is basically unchanged, then Mirage Saloon brings back the worst Sonic 2 zone for act 1 and act 2 is way too damn short, then Oil Ocean is...well, better than before, and not actually that bad honestly. I like it now! Lava Reef...exists. Metallic Madness is pretty fucking cool if a complete mess level-design wise, and Titanic Monarch is, while nowhere near as difficult as people say it is, just kind of a slog. I do have to say that unlike all three classic games, there are truly no zones that I'm like "oh god why not this shit again" (both Marble AND Marble Garden can go to hell) when I enter them :v:
Does anyone else have issues with levels like Flying Battery Zone on the automated runs parts of the level? Sometimes you'll be upside down, right side up -- and sometimes you'll STOP MOVING in the middle of all of that and fall to your death. I don't know if I should hold the controller forward the entire time, or in the direction that I appear to be going in an automated run. Hope you guys know what I'm talking about -- it's mega frustrating and I hope is addressed in future Sonic 2D titles.
I found a rocket while messing around with debug mode in lava reef act 2 and wondered if anyone had found that. Nvm , it was part of the sonic boss arena.
Is that right? I only glitch finished the level on the PS4 in time trial. Only reason I'm not sure it's the same is that the unused room in question has a checkpoint. Does this one?
I've seen it quite a few times today playing as Knuckles first and as Tails later. It's as dangerous as his frantic punching, though. Btw, forgot in my previous post to say I'm totally ignoring the drop dash, I only used it accidentally some times in my first room when trying to use the insta-shield as I was used to. It's true I've tried to use it a couple of times, but it doesn't charge enough to be valuable for my playstyle, I prefer to land and charge a classic spindash if I need to. While it makes sense as Tails' flight and Knuckles glide counterpart, and some people find it useful and fascinating even in Mania mode, I'm not one of those and I'm not interested in time attack either, so I play as I did in Sonic 2.
I'd say that this one and Super Sonic's theme may be the two tracks that feel the most out of place in a Classic Sonic game. They just scream "Modern Sonic" to me, which kinda defeats the whole point of this game. Not saying that they're bad.
