Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Beltway

    Beltway

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    "Decades worth of actually good games"? Come off it. The only Sonic games outside the Genesis games and Mania agreed to be good games by the general public are Colors and Generations. You might get a couple of people outside the fanbase remember the existence of the Advance or Rush games (hardly anybody outside the fanbase bought, let alone cares about, the handheld titles), or the All-Stars Racing games if you consider spinoffs. That's it in what's otherwise been a sea of mediocre games, with the exceptions games notorious either for being complete trainwrecks, or sparking flamewars on whether they are actually good games or not.

    Most of those good Sonic games, by the by, are also 2D; even the couple of the "good" 3D games listed still have a large amount of 2D in them. None of the other 3D Sonic games come even close to establishing some semblance of a consistent baseline quality. The argument that "2D Sonic has never been good" is a load of crap isn't unfounded, far from it; even if Mania isn't the "true Sonic game" the fanbase needs--it's still two country miles better than the majority of games --2D and especially 3D-- that have come out since the mid-90s. (And if by "true Sonic game" you mean being a 3D game--I don't know what to tell you, as that was never the point of the game in the first place. People who wanted a new 3D Sonic are supposed to watch from the sidelines and look forward to Forces.)

    And even then, none of the "good" Sonic games outside the Genesis titles and Mania are considered or have been described to be among the best in the platforming genre by the gaming community. They're admitted to be good, but aren't considered exceptional; nobody is going to mention Colors or Rush in the same breath as platformers like Donkey Kong Country 2, Super Mario Galaxy, or Rayman Origins in a neutral space. Yet when Mania becomes the first critically acclaimed Sonic game in ages --as opposed being merely considered "okay", "good enough", "great for its time"-- your reaction is to slam them for not pretending Sonic games have been consistently exceptional (which is blatantly untrue) and then accuse them of holding the series to ridiculous standards? Get off your high horse.

    The only ridiculous standards being propped here are from Sonic diehards, demanding reviewers and general consumers (and even other people within the same fandom) to act as if Sonic has always been a perfect series that has done almost nothing wrong.
     
  2. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    I'm not saying having challenging game design that requires you to practice a lot is bad. More just saying it's not an excuse for the player having to overcome bad game design. That and telling people who are bad at games to "git gud" just feels dismissive.
     
  3. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    Frankly, I actually think it is a well-designed boss. Here's the thing about Sonic: Even though his gimmick is speed, rushing into any situation can and, eventually, will get you hurt. Here's the boss in a nutshell:

    "There he is! I got a few hits in, but now he's hiding, shooting a claw and a laser gun. Now they're gone, but these turret tentacles appeared right when the head did, and I can't safely reach the boss! Can I...destroy the turrets? Yes, that one took damage! I'll deal with the turrets first, then the head will be wide open!"

    That's it. There's a strategy to it, a very basic one, and trying to rush in and murder it quickly will get you killed, and it's your fault. As for Knuckles, while it is more difficult to get back on the platform, it's not impossible, and after the boss retreats, you still have a few seconds to get where the platforms will reappear.
     
  4. TimmiT

    TimmiT

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Member
    Pretty sure the issue players are having isn't just that they're rushing in. Otherwise they would have trouble with all of the bosses before OOZ as well.
     
  5. McAleeCh

    McAleeCh

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    Ah, man! Just got Super Tails myself, too - thought I was doing pretty well grabbing the 7th Emerald near the end of Flying Battery Act 1 (though, not having enough rings, I then didn't get to use Super Tails until Act 2). And then you come along and do it in Studiopolis...!

    Ah well. Happy with my run-through so far, anyway - first time I've got all the Emeralds before completing the game. Finished my first run-through (Sonic & Tails) with only two Emeralds and had to keep going back to Green Hill Zone to get the rest - second time through (with Knuckles) I did a little better and only had two Emeralds left to get once I'd finished the game. Side note: Knuckles' Green Hill Zone is pretty damn good for Special Stage farming, as there's a big ring like 12 seconds into his route through the stage...! = P
     
  6. Zephyr

    Zephyr

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    I mean, I'll concede that there's a difference between challenge and bad design, but I think OOZ2 falls under the former. It goes without saying, but obviously one person's challenge is another's poor design. Everyone has different lengths they're willing to go to. I'd say something like Egg Reverie is bad design, since it forces you to watch an unskippable cutscene each time you retry.

    Well, if they are in fact bad at games (which isn't a case of bad game design), then the dismissiveness feels warranted. Step up to the challenge and learn and improve, or save yourself the frustration and walk away. I opt for the latter quite often nowadays, but I'm not blaming the games for it.

    I'm not saying that there isn't a point where you can't, in your frustration, reasonably call the game out for being poorly designed, but if one is, again, truly bad at games, then perhaps the cause of the frustration lies within their lack of skill, and that's the area that warrants concern.
     
  7. Laughingcow

    Laughingcow

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    Oh come off that nonsense.

    Sonic is held to a different standard that most games because we hold him to the same standard we hold Mario games i.e. really fucking high. Sonic is held to that because the Classic games earned that respect the same way the original Crash Bandicoot Trilogy earned it. Outside of the original Sonic Adventure (which was an actual fully 3d game), NONE of the 3d games ever come close. Hell, it wouldn't be such a hard comparison to call the Boost games "watered down" Crash Bandicoot games in that they lack the excellent platforming those 2.5D games are known for.

    For the sake of argument, what kind of standard should we hold Sonic to if not one on a high pedestal?
     
  8. Strife

    Strife

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    Freedom Planet 2
  9. You-Are-Pwned

    You-Are-Pwned

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgbd7_-Ro3Q
     
  10. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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  11. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    On my first run, OOZ2 boss was one of the ones that caused me the least trouble, while heavy shinobi was one that I defeated thanks to luck and aid from tails (ST playthrough), because I didn't know what was happening. I can't defeat this last one quite easily now, so the "git gud" argument is valid for me, and also that one about design quality being subjectively assigned in many cases. I can ocassionally land two hits on the spider boss using the same helix axis too, and it was supposed to be impossible due to the non-collision segment after a hit. I can also beat the special stages easily now, feeling the 4th is actually harder than the 5th now that I mastered all.

    I think the main thing here is that we got used to be masters of the classics, so we expect to be immediate masters of any new game with a true classic gameplay, but the fact is the game is new and the developers do things in a different way to the games we know so well. I like this game more now that 10 days have passed since its PC release (when I tried it for the first time) because I'm more used to it and can move through it with more confidence and some clues about where am I at every moment.

    Said that, my best advice is to cool your mind and ignore frustration, keep yourself alive first and then plan how to take your enemies down, how to get through traps and gimmicks. Oh, and something more, don't worry if you do some things worse on your third playthorugh than you did on your first or second, that's also part of the first steps of the learning process.
     
  12. Lilly

    Lilly

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    The only thing that made me mad during the Oil Ocean Boss fight was getting crushed, simply by standing on a platform the octopus dragged down so fast, Sonic still stood on it perfectly and touched the death pit at the bottom of the screen. I was so upset, because I had already endured a lot of un-fun crushes as Sonic before that boss fight, and the boss itself had one hit left before it was toast.

    It's a good thing I played the game as Tails for my first run. I was only crushed maybe one time?

    I feared having to rewatch that cutscene much more than losing my already limited quantity of lives. Most of those I lost by getting crushed unexpectedly. (Thanks to Sonic having a taller hitbox than Tails. :v: )

    One aspect I really liked about Sonic Mania are its bosses. For once, I can't simply bounce off Eggman's head 8 times and make a bee line for the animal capsule. Considering Sonic's simple movement system and combat, they're very engaging and fun. They come really close to the same level of enjoyment I get from Freedom Planet's bosses.
     
  13. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

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    https://blog.us.playstation.com/2017/09/08/ps-store-augusts-top-downloads/

    Mania was the number 3 top digital download on PS4 for August.
     
  14. Jason

    Jason

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    Well deserved. Hard to beat new football games, and I've heard good things about Hellblade. Hopefully it stays in the Top 20 for a while.
     
  15. JaxTH

    JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    Sonic Adventure is on that PS3 list.
     
  16. CollectiveWater

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    And it's currently #1 on the Playstation Store and has been since around August 24th. So yeah, it'll likely be in the top 5 for the month of September, too. (I heavily assume "Destiny 2" will be #1 for the month of September, but "Mania" shouldn't be too far behind.) Considering the size of the PS4 userbase and how many games get released/the more competitive nature of the Playstation Store, it seems like a really strong performance from "Mania" for its first two months there.

    It's also currently #2 on the Nintendo Switch eShop, behind only the recently released "Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle." (Not a surprise "Kingdom Battle" would take the #1 position considering the reviews it got/it has Mario & crew in it.) "Mania" was #1 on the Switch eShop from when it was released until just a few days ago (September 4th is when it fell to #2, I believe), so again, seems like a really strong performance from "Mania." I expect "Mania" to continue doing really well on Switch, possibly for a longer amount of time than it does on PS4. Perfect portable/home console hybrid game, the Switch audience has more similarities with/is the audience for "Mania," Switch games have a very high attach rate, and there's not much being released for the system between now and "Odyssey" on Oct. 27th. ("Steamworld Dig 2," "Pokken Tournament," and "Fire Emblem Warriors" will all do well, but definitely not as massive numbers as "Odyssey" will.) I expect it to be in the top 5 (and likely #2) for the month of September on the Switch eShop, and I'd expect it to remain in the top 10 through the end of this year on the platform.

    Meanwhile on PC (Steam) the highest it ever went was #3, on release day, quickly falling to the #20-30 range two days after its release. It's currently at #41. Definitely doing fine there, but clearly not anywhere near the gangbusters performance on PS4/Switch. Wonder why that could be... :P

    (I don't know if you can find data on how Xbox One digital games are doing; I don't own that platform so I haven't been following it there at all, but I'd assume it's doing well there, too. But surely not as well as it's doing on PS4/Switch. Maybe somewhat better than PC, though. Again, no idea--that's just my assumption for that specific platform with literally no data to back it up.)

    This is all interesting data, but of course we really don't know anything unless official specific figures are released. I also really hope five years from now final numbers for all platforms are released; would be fascinating to see where it ends up compared to all other games in the series.
     
  17. In every Pokemon game prior to Sun/Moon, a species' types were only registered when they were caught. Sun/Moon changes it to be registered once the species has been seen, which makes the in-battle type matchup guide much more than a simple QOL improvement. It's an unprecedented amount of information given to the player in-game. That said, Sun/Moon was actually rather difficult if you played without the EXP Share.

    Mania has helped me identify a few flaws in the classic 'formula' that have yet to be addressed. One of those is that your 'health' during boss fights is dependent on the ease of re-collecting your rings, which can vary wildly. For example, it's almost impossible to recollect rings in the Studiopolis 1 and Hydrocity 2 bosses due to their auto-scrolling nature, so your rings only really protect you from one hit. On the other hand, the spike wall in the final phase of the Metal Sonic boss prevents your dropped rings from going off the edge of the screen, so you basically have unlimited chances during that fight as long as you let the wall push you along whenever you get hit.

    Another thing that none of the classics ever really nailed was a proper difficulty curve, and Mania's bosses are a perfect example of that still not being ironed out. None of them are terribly difficult, but they are rather all over the place.
     
  18. XCubed

    XCubed

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    Everyone must see this!

    Sonic Mania Acapella
    https://youtu.be/4DD6arwMCOA
     
  19. Stimil Rc.

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    Pretty nice, though I'd like to see how somebody handles a track with vocals in them.

    If we're sharing random Mania videos, here are the special stages with Sonic R music over them:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4L0BVno99E

    Please let this be a mod one day. Also, Sumo Digital should make a sequel to Sonic R, except actually good this time.

    I never got why telling the player the effectiveness of moves is seen as a bad thing. Pokemon obfuscates so much valuable information, especially when it comes to things related to competitive battling like EVs, IVs, the impact of natures, etc. Not telling the player these things doesn't make the game more challenging, it limits what kinds of challenges they can make in single player and is one of the many reasons why building teams for multiplayer is one of the most unfun things ever.
     
  20. Beltway

    Beltway

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    That's the US store, BTW. The European store had Mania at #8.