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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Sirius-R

    Sirius-R

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    That's like telling everybody wanting a genuine classic gameplay/physics to go play Mega Drive titles.
    E-122 Psi's Amy romhacks are the biggest reason I'm into MD-era Sonic games again. Let alone that I've only got myself inspired enough to beat S3&K on 100% as her, because the original trio are 3mainstream5me.
     
  2. JaxTH

    JaxTH

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    Jack shit.
    Better be Classic Amy if so.
     
  3. Socknic

    Socknic

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    I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of an additional character, but I think the whole matter is a bit more complicated than it might initially appear to be. Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles all have established playstyles within the classic formula. Sonic represents the baseline, a reference point if you will. Tails plays very similarly, but introduces increased verticality with his ability to fly. Knuckles' playstyle is certainly harder to describe, but it suffices to say that it mixes up the formula enough to be interesting, while still adhering to the baseline. The icing on the cake is that each character, at least in S3&K, is able to access paths unique to them. While characters with different mechanics do serve to increase variety and longevity, the separate paths truly feel like new, fresh content. While I admit that I haven't seen any examples of this from the Mania footage we've seen, I'm fairly confident that Tails and Knuckles will be well implemented, at least in this regard. I do think that any new character would be in danger of becoming an afterthought, even in the hands of competent developers. No matter how well designed a level is, a point will be reached where you simply can't cram in any more exclusive routes and areas. All this, of course, is assuming that Tails and Knuckles themselves will receive this treatment in Mania's zones. While the addition of a character without unique routes wouldn't truly harm the game, it would feel like a bit of a half measure. Despite this obsessive ramble that I've just typed out, I really would be surprised if we saw any new characters in Mania.
     
  4. Sirius-R

    Sirius-R

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    It's official: I' throwing my money at Mania if it's going to have playable Amy, and only if it's going to have playable Amy. I don't really care about anything else tbh.
    Sadly, the objective chances of Mania having Amy are same as chances of raining blue cats in Sahara Desert in Mania's day of release. So, I better go prepare loads of blue paint, at least three hundred cats and a squadron of long-range bombers... :(

    I see no reason to include modern Amy design in a game that's obviously inspired by the classic era.
    I'm with you on that one though, as I only find classic Amy's design likeable.

    Gotta note here that I especially liked how Amy in E-122 Psi's S3&K hack could access pretty much any path, be it Sonic's or Knuckes's (I don't remember Tails having dedicated paths in S3&K, and as far as I know, he shares the path with Sonic; if he does have dedicated paths, point me to them). Playing as her also felt like a unique experience, despite her abilities being ported from Sonic Advance series (not sure to what extent though, as I didn't play Advance games for quite some time).
     
  5. Blue Spikeball

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    I have to ask... If you only care about Sonic games in which you can play as a character who eschews the series' basic gameplay staples (ie: high speed gameplay, spin jump attack and roll), why are you following the Sonic series? I don't mean that in an elitist way, but it honestly sounds to me like you would be more at home with any other platforming series.
     
  6. Chaud

    Chaud

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    Well, Sonic Fans are a strange group. :v:
     
  7. Lilly

    Lilly

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    You still have fast momentum-based platforming with Amy, if not a stronger focus on the momentum and exploration the series is known for, because she has to work harder to reach top speed than Sonic, by using her surroundings to gain speed. (lol no spindash for instant speed gratification) She trades things like spin-dashing for better versatility in combat and vertical height gain.

    As well, Amy's like a walking apocalypse with her hammer. It's so satisfying to destroy robots or bosses as her, and hammering down on an ordinary spring to soar really high is fun for me; more so underwater. In some ways, she reminds me just a pinch of Freedom Planet's mixture of speed and combat.

    It's hard to find something that plays exactly like Amy in other platformers. Her being in Sonic Advance 1 was what kept me coming back to it the most, of all the GBA games Sonic had on the Advance.

    That said, I wouldn't mind it if Amy was absent in Mania, because we still have Tails. I'm just providing a few reasons why people like Amy. It's not simply because she's a "Pink Sonic", as a little kid once put it when I let them play my GBA. Amy takes the existing gameplay and gives it an appreciable layer of mechanical depth it didn't have on its own.
     
  8. Amnimator

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    ^ I can certainly see Amy having her own gameplay style that isn't just Sonic but slower. The hammer can a lot of weight to it, swinging it in mid air can give you way more aerial control than, say Sonic, as well as pushing you the direction you swing the hammer. She could probably break through shortcuts exclusive to Knuckles as well, and still hold her own on the main path of the stage. There's a lot you can do with that kind of gameplay style, while not keeping it too different from the main cast to make it feel out of place at the same time not keeping it too similar as to feel cheap.
     
  9. Blue Spikeball

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    I'm not saying her gameplay isn't fun. But I feel your post only enforces my point. Her gameplay trades away the mechanics the series is known for in favor of more common platforming elements. Less focus on speed, more focus on combat. You can still go moderately fast depending on how you play, just not as fast as Sonic... just like in Mario games. No spin jump or rolling, you attack enemies with a weapon and are vulnerable the rest of the time... just like in most games. In other words, just about everything that sets her gameplay apart from other Sonic characters makes the game closer to non-Sonic games, and can be found in other series and to a larger extent. So if you only care about her gameplay and not about the standard Sonic formula, why would you care about Sonic games?

    I don't think her hammer is supposed to be as powerful as Knuckles' attacks. In fact, I've always been under the impression it's less powerful than Sonic's spin attack. In SA1, she couldn't destroy Zero with the hammer alone; she needed to lure him into the electrical fences and then hit the core inside his head. Just hitting him with the hammer would merely stun him for a brief time. By contrast, Sonic could defeat every robot and mech in that game with his spin attack alone, including Gamma. And in Sonic Advance 3, she couldn't break strong walls and blocks unless she had Knuckles powering up her hammer.
     
  10. DigitalDuck

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    • An alcove with an extra life in AIZ2.
    • An upper route towards the end of AIZ2 (containing another extra life).
    • A shortcut in MGZ1 (containing a big ring that Sonic can access, but only from the other side).
    • Upper routes throughout MGZ2.
    • A shortcut in CNZ2 (containing a big ring that Sonic can access, but only from the other side).
    • An upper route at the start of LBZ1 (via elevator, containing a big ring that Sonic can access, but only with excessive backtracking).
    • A shortcut in LBZ1.
    • A shortcut in LBZ2.
    • An unintended shortcut in FBZ1.
    • An upper route near the beginning of SZ1.
    • A big ring in SZ1. [note that I missed this when we were talking about Tails-exclusive big rings - this one is Tails-exclusive]
    • An upper route towards the end of SZ1.
    • A big ring in LRZ1. [I missed this one too.]
    • The big haul in HPZ.
    • A shortcut in SSZ (possibly unintended).
    • A lower route throughout DEZ1.

    I think that's all of them. Could be wrong, though.
     
  11. Lilly

    Lilly

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    Speed isn't all there is to Sonic, otherwise we wouldn't have so many debates about Classic vs Modern. (i.e, momentum-based gameplay versus boost.) Or how Classic Sonic plays nothing like he should in Generations. If speed was Sonic's only defining trait, the classics would be as shallow as many fans believe Sonic Advance 2/Rush/Adventure to be.

    Amy's playstyle compliments the classics' momentum-based gameplay, and allows you more freedom to make use of it. It's still Sonic, but with more tools. You should take a deeper look into all the little things that makes those older games fun.
     
  12. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I don't think I ever implied that Sonic is just about speed.
     
  13. Lilly

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    Then what are you advocating? That Amy doesn't fit for cosmetic reasons and it's wrong for Sonic games to have more than one playstyle on top of its physics? I'm getting this impression from your posts. If so, I have to respectfully disagree, and I already gave my reasons why in previous posts; got nothing else new to say on the matter.

    (As a side note, it's a little hard to read your posts, since everything is lumped into one giant paragraph. You can get a lot of mileage from paragraph spacing.)

    Either way, I get the feeling we'll probably talk in circles until I eventually understand what you're trying to say, so instead of wasting pages in this thread on that, I'm bowing out of the topic until there's something else I want to reply to. Which might not be any time soon, I don't want too many spoilers on Mania myself.
     
  14. Amnimator

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    I'm talking a total overhaul of how she plays. If you put more weight to the hammer, have the swings actually affect your velocity, there's a lot more I think you can do with her. Swings would take longer, making her a harder character to play, but at the same time making her pretty versatile. Her hammer can be used as a spin attack, a double jump, an air dash, etc.
     
  15. Laura

    Laura

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    If Amy were to playable in future 2D titles then I hope she would play like the main cast. I find her gimmick in Advance, where she couldn't spin and had to rely on a hammer strike, boring and dumb. I would want her to be able to spin jump like everyone else. Otherwise she's just weak, plays too differently to the main cast and functions as a gimmicky hard mode.

    I also think they should give her an additional ability that plays into the formula of Tails and Knuckles, who play on movement (flying up or gliding straight). I guess you could make her have a hammer jump dash or something? I wouldn't really know how to adapt her to the game.

    Also, as a note to Sonic and speed. Sonic isn't just about speed, but whenever the series strays too far away from it's speed focus it usually stumbles about awkwardly. Marble Zone and Wacky Workbench are great examples of what happens when the franchise tries to be like any other generic platformer (WW is more unique in its setup, but it aggressively encourages slow platforming). Sonic isn't just about speed, but it's play on speed is what makes it stand out.
     
  16. Felik

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    I'm pretty sure that's the prime reason why so many people like her playstyle so much :v:
     
  17. Laura

    Laura

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    Oh I know :v:

    But outside of hardcore fans and curio purposes, it's not very elegantly designed and it's far less engaging than Sonic's core gameplay. It also doesn't really do justice to Amy as a character. She comes across as less capable than the main cast, which she was in Sonic CD, but she's come a long way since then.

    In fact, I'd go out on a limb and say that Amy has never been satisfying to play as in any game aside from Adventure 2 (and even then she was essentially a Sonic model swap). I'd rather they'd go for a fun approach to Amy rather than play on obscure nostalgia.
     
  18. Sirius-R

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    :objection:
    I wouldn't say that Amy gravitates more towards "other platforming series" gameplay-wise as much as you think. Sure, she's slower than Sonic, but so are Tails and Knuckles. She still feels faster than most of platforming characters, including Mario (whom I outright dislike). Surely that's more courtesy of level design of Sonic series, but that's pretty much what I love the series for. Put Mario in Sonic's levels and he'd GOTTA GO FAST too.
    As for the spin/roll attacks part... now I'd say that doesn't make sense to me. Remember how Sonic does spin/roll attacks because he's a hedgehog? Amy is a goddamn hedgehog too, why can't she do same attacks as well??? Oh, yeah, more emphasis on Piko-Piko (tbh I'm not even sure if she had it before Sonic Adventure), which is a cool weapon in its way, which not only lets you smash enemies, but can also propel you upwards
    I'd say that Tails shouldn't be able to do spin/roll attacks either because he's of species that don't naturally spin/roll, but I'd say that it was a necessity because, unlike Amy, Tails offers nothing in return; besides, it surely was done to retain a high degree of "compatibility" with Sonic's gameplay, so Tails could go through the same paths Sonic could. Gotta point out how Amy still can spin in the aforementioned hack, but that's a completely rudimentary ability that exists solely to retain said "compatibility" with the main characters' paths; judging how Amy didn't need spin/roll attacks in Advance series, its levels probably didn't require spinning to advance.

    Honestly, my reasons are far less logical than they should be - I'm still in for the high-speed gameplay, I just like obscure characters such as Amy (mostly in classic appearance, as her post-Adventure redesign sucks imo), Cream (oh, the hilarity of playing as Cream in Sonic Advance 2...) and Blaze (this badass princess desperately needs more love... which probably won't happen because she's from parallel universe and shit) way too much. And I don't like other platforming series as much because... they're other platforming series? I'm way too fond of Sonic's lore to drop the series. :specialed:
    The only other platforming series I liked as much as Sonic games was Freedom Planet, which is still a rather fast-paced platformer... originating from guess where? Also of note is that FP's characters' gameplay is rather diverse, allowing more diverse experience, which gives it more bonus points from me comparing to classic Sonic titles which only offer Sonic, smaller Sonic with helicopter in his ass and Sonic after 1000 hours in gym (which I don't really mind that much, but still diversity is cooler by my book).
     
  19. Amnimator

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    I mean, she can still keep the spin jump, I just feel the hammer makes her just as unique as Tails or Knuckles and just sticks. I don't get the argument that it wouldn't work with what Sonic stands for- I think it meshes well.

    No way to tell for sure unless we decide to do the R&D and experiment with how she'd work with an overhaul of her gameplay style.
     
  20. tbh I agree that Amy w/ her Sonic Advance toolset is actually a good addition to the classics.
    She's a little more different than Tails and Knuckles but variety is the spice of life, no?
    She still works in the momentum and physics of the classics and actually hearkens back to Sonic 1 a bit with the fact that you have to work harder to maintain it.
    EDIT: it ain't gonna happen in Mania of course. but it's not an awful idea

    also: Stardust Speedway Act 1 is my goddamn jam woooooh it's so good