Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.
Those are clearly outliers and not what I'm talking about at all, however.
Wait so let me try to understand this logic. If Sega hires a new team of developers to develop a new 3d Sonic game called "Sonic Adventure 3" and they happen to be fans of Sonic. Does that make it a fan game too? That means every Sonic game that had any new developers besides the original ones are all fan games.
I'm surprised that no one has post this here yet...Ok...here I go...
SEGA DOES WHAT NINTENDON'T
I dunno, I agree with Chaud on some points. A game experience is a game experience, is a game experience, and there's a whole spectrum of them out there. Especially when you're talking about the indie space where people don't really have an overseeing hand. Take stuff like Stardew Valley. One guy. Who tells him what's quality and what's not?
Or maybe a better example, since Stardew Valley is an excellent game that lives up to all its viral success, is Five Nights at Freddy. Sure those games are fun, but they... do leave something to be desired in terms of polish.
I think maybe what defines a fan game is two factors:
1) Something that people build on an IP that they do not technically have the rights to do. The IP holder is in every respect within reason to shut these projects down as part of maintaining their brand image. In other words, fan games are a legal gray area compared to indie games of a similar effort scale. Of course, commercially profiting off them is a huge no-no (unless you're talking the doujin industry in Japan which is a hilariously different beast in itself) and while an indie game can be thematically or mechanically similar to stuff it takes inspiration from, fan games directly benefit from tapping into an already existing fan base. Take SRB2 for example - would it have had nearly the same run it had had it simply been a Doom mod?
2) Something that you don't actually have to have accountability for. Chaud put it another way - you do your job to put food on the table and keep the lights on. I think paraphrased, what you're getting at, that there's an overseeing hand of approval, is a subset of this sentiment, that you're doing this as a job and can't just walk away when you lose interest. A fan game and an indie project may have the same level of enthusiasm for it, but the indie knows that the light at the end of the tunnel is putting the completed project up for distribution/sale and possibly making some dosh. A fan game simply can not have this same endgame, regardless of how motivated people involved may be.
Adding my own two cents into the mix, what I said on GAF was:
The thing that separates hobbyists from professionals isn't so much their interest or talent. It's more whether they've shipped a product.
Maybe it's not nearly as clear cut, but having an actual completed commercial project shows that beyond talent, inspiration and interest, there's also accountability and the ability to see a project all the way through to completion.
Just quoting because this had a lot of stuff I had missed.
Studiopolis looks really good, design-wise. The layout is looking more fun each time I see it. Some parts in there just looked really playful; great stuff.
The extra paths in GHZ look cool.
The drop dash is on display a lot.
There's definitely a part of me that goes "Ho hum more GHZ." But at the same time, I love the idea of getting to run around in and explore a bigger, more robust GHZ.
So this is only my 4th post in as many years on the forum, but I just had to sign in and express my delight/enthusiasm for this project. Congrats to everyone involved. One of my earliest posts was basically me unintentionally derailing a thread with suggestions to Taxman concerning the retro engine in his Sonic CD thread. Now I can finally post about it and it seem more on topic.
I'm really hoping to see some bonus modes. Time trials go without saying, but I'd also like to see a boss rush mode. I have high hopes since there was one in the Sonic 2 mobile ports. I'd also like some simple bonus modes. Maybe a "hard" mode where Sonic dies in one hit (unless you have a shield)... it'd be a lot like Mario in a sense, but as a bonus mode I don't think anyone would be offended.
DLC characters would be the best way to handle additional characters in my mind. Anyone who hates Sonic's extra friends doesn't have to bother, and anyone who does can pick and choose their favorites. That's not to say free unlockable characters aren't appreciated, of course.
Extra DLC levels would be really cool, but I'd really like a Trials mode akin to Sonic VR, but with lots of tests for Knuckles and Tails too. As much as I like them, their abilities almost feel like cheating most of the time since they essentially are able to break the stage by flying/gliding/climbing over it. To have little challenge rooms designed with their specific moves in mind would really help show off what makes them unique.
One last suggestion/wishful thought; in the spirit of Sonic CD, I'd love a couple (or three) different soundtracks from different artists. Heck, Spencer Nielsen would probably still be down to do one. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who wants a Genesis version soundtrack as well. Chibi-tech has done a great job with Sega Genesis style music in the past (Sega Vintage Collection menus and new 3DS port music).
Anywho, there's my Mania thoughts. I'm super pumped, no matter what ends up being in it; it looks great!
To all the people calling this a fan game just sounds like they're expressing their jealousy. I don't care how you sugarcoat it. It is a sign of disrespect. We, Classic Sonic fans, haven't seen a game like this in over 22 years associated with Sega and some of you are hating on it. Let us be happy with our "fan game".
Edit: Other people who started off making fan games should be happy for Christian Whitehead and Stealth. They basically are paving the way for all of you guys and showing you if you want to actually make these games on a professional level, you can. They all started making rom hacks and fan games like you at one time. Both of these guys have a good understanding of the Genesis programming. I mean if they didn't they would not have been able to make remasters that play exactly like the classics but better.
Sonic fans taking things too seriously again it's like Sonic 4 all over again oh god
Look, you don't need to beat a dead horse over for the millionth time. It's fair to say it looks like a fangame, because it does, but it also doesn't. It shows how good people have gotten in recent years for this to not look impressive -- that's what the point is. Sonic Next Level, Megamix's original levels that were in development, AtS/BtS, so on, so forth; they're graphically stunning, look like classic Sonic games, and that's what Mania also looks like. It's a fair comparison. Similarly, look how good Mega Man fangames have gotten (the 8-bit ones in particular because that's a circlejerk that'll never die for some reason with no one ever wanting to do something different, but that's a matter for a different discussion), and then compare that to Mega Man 9 or 10. If you showed me either of those, and then compared to one of the more known fangames in development - it'd be hard to tell the difference.
Sonic Mania is a professional game, made by professionals, who happen to be fans and are closely working with SEGA. Let's be happy for the guys for even getting the opportunity in the first place. The reason I'm excited? It's an official product and can potentially open the door to more like it if it does well. And for that I hope that it does do well, because I sure would like more like this.
I want to address a very serious issue that has come to my attention in this thread.
Um. We appear to be using the wrong word.
Keeping it on-topic, if Mania were a fangame it wouldn't be out in 2017. We'd be lucky to see it in 2020 if it didn't get cancelled thrice, uncancelled as many times, team changes, shit leaked, etc. etc. Except unless you're LakeFeperd or something because that's a guy who should be burned at the stake in Salem. Wow.
Okay, not very on-topic - but it's all I can add without echoing others to the tune of "much of the behind-the-scenes stuff like QA testing will really make the difference between this and an unsanctioned, unlicensed hobbyits project".
It does look like a fan game in that aspect but if you play them on a regular, you can tell the difference. This moves and looks better than any fan game or rom hack I've seen. The only things that come close are Sonic: Next Level, the most recent videos of Megamix, Pana der Hejog, and maybe Neo Genesis. The other fan games I've seen look good too but they aren't even close to this. Many Sonic fan games do look and play better than the original Genesis titles but not this (Mania) and the game won't be finished until Spring of next year.
Given that fan games have been setting the standard for Sonic for at least the last ten years, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say a game that has the potential to set new standards is a bit like a fan game. Of course, "like a fan game" isn't the same as "is a fan game" - this obviously isn't a fan game as it has official endorsement and oversight of the IP owners, but it does look like one, and that's not going away without destroying fifteen years of history. Freedom Planet looks like a Sonic fan game, just as it looks like a Mega Drive game and looks like a 2D platformer. Spoilers: nobdy cares.
I only care if half the game is built on the old stages because I've seen and paid for it all before. But if Sega are forcing this because they're scared of risk, then that's fine - we can blame them!
I wouldn't be so sure put blame on SEGA for this. Keep in mind that Tax already has all Sonic 1,2 and CD levels built in his engine. It would make perfect sense for him from resource management standpoint to put some of them to use again.
...Plus Angel Island Zone from the Sonic 3 Mobile proof-of-concept that Taxman & Stealth put together. = P
Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if the returning stages idea was from SEGA's end - after all, even though they're releasing in 2017, both Mania and Project Sonic 2017 seem to be being marketed as the 25th Anniversary Sonic games, so it makes sense that SEGA would want a little nostalgia in both titles (hence returning stages in Mania, and Classic Sonic / Death Egg Robots in Project Sonic 2017).
Having said that, Green Hill Zone has shown us the stages won't just be straight ports - Act 1 is clearly a fusion of Act 1 & 2 of the original, heavily expanded with new sections above the original routes, and with a completely new section later in the stage. Artwork has been redrawn or touched up in a lot of places, the music remixed from scratch (incorporating a few of the original Mega Drive synths for nostalgia), S3&K-style background transitions (cave section!) and end-of-act mini-bosses have been created, and in some cases elements from other similar stages have been incorporated into the mix (e.g. Basaran appearing in the cave sections, and the EHZ corkscrew appearing in Act 1). I believe it's been said that Green Hill will be the most conservative of the remade Zones - I'd be surprised if we see as much (or any) of the original level layouts incorporated directly into other returning stages.
On that note - since we know there'll be returning stages to some degree, which stages do people want to see? It's been reported that stages from Sonic 1/2/3&K & CD will all be included. With at least one returning stage per game, that'd be five returning stages (or four if they're counting S3&K as one game). We already know Green Hill Zone will be returning from Sonic 1 - for the others, I'd love to see the following stages included:
Sonic 2 - Mystic Cave Zone
Sonic CD - Tidal Tempest
Sonic 3 - Ice Cap Zone
Sonic & Knuckles - either Flying Battery Zone or Sandopolis Zone
...On a side note - if returning stages are all referred to as Zones in-game, would that technically make it the first time a returning Sonic CD stage would be referred to as a "Zone" in the same sense as the main series games? In-game in CD, the nomenclature used is that stages are "Rounds" consisting of 3 "Zones", rather than the usual "Zone"/"Act" naming used in the other Sonic games of the time.
The whole topic barely makes me blink. I love fan games, but when Sonic Mania is released you'll see the difference. It won't have fan game smell.
Regarding returning zones, I'd like:
Sonic 2: Aquatic Ruin or Mystic Cave
Sonic 3: Icecap or Hydrocity
Sonic & Knuckles: Mushroom Hill
Sonic CD: Stardust Speedway or Collision Chaos
Gotta admit, Mystic Cave is long overdue a return to the limelight. Hydrocity was in all but level design, so seeing that redone would be great, but then again... remastered Icecap with remastered Icecap music... hmmm...
Off topic from the fangame argument, but what are the chances that Mania will have analog controls? Like being able to tilt the control stick slightly for Sonic to walk.
I doubt it is necessary, and it could even mess with some timing and platforming, but it could be a neat detail if done right.
I guess I'll totally wishlist off zones I'd like to see for each game.
Sonic 2: Aquatic Ruin or Mystic Cave for sure. I would say Hill Top as it's my personal favorite S2 zone but I think the prior two have the potential to be far more interesting when redesigned.
Sonic CD: Definitely Stardust Speedway. By far the best music in the game and I think with a less confusing layout/gimmick it could be really, really fun.
Sonic 3: Launch Base, mostly for the music but also cause I think this zone deserves more appreciation, it's actually quite fun!
S&K: Lava Reef/Hidden Palace, maybe a fusion of the two. I've always wanted to see Hidden Palace's S&K tileset have its own stage, it looked soooo cool.
That's all I got though, I'm sure we'll get more and that whatever's used will be great. I'm actually praying for one more S1 zone, either Spring Yard or Star Light, these both deserve some more love IMO, they're pretty enjoyable and could definitely be made even more fun.
OK, so my rundown of zones I want most from each game was chosen based both on personal preference, and also the zones which I felt had the most potential for expansion.
Sonic 1 – Spring Yard
CD - Collision Chaos
Sonic 2 – Oil Ocean
Sonic 3 – Launch Base
Knuckles – Lava Reef
If we're in wishlist mode, I'm hoping for:
Sonic 2: Mystic Cave or Aquatic Ruin
Sonic CD: Quartz Quadrant or Stardust Speedway
Sonic 3 & Knuckles: Hydrocity AND Lava Reef
Again, I wish for nothing but new zones, but if we have to do zone re-makes, there's a lot of potential. Maybe even for later DLC to capitalize on the potential Generations never even attempted to.
Just as long as the levels aren't just the Generations roster again.
Sonic 1: Labyrinth and Scrap Brain
Sonic CD: Quartz Quadrant and Starlight Speedway
Sonic 2: Hill Top and Mystic Cave
Sonic 3: Ice Cap
Sonic & Knuckles: Flying Battery and Sandopolis
These are the zones which stand out as particularly unique. In Sonic 3 Ice Cap in particular stands out because it was far less complex and developed in level design than the rest and obviously offers significant opportunity to expand.
I'm gonna hop on this train before people start bitching about the entire thread being wishlist stuff.
CD: Quartz Quadrant or Stardust Speedway, but preferably the former. I want to see Quartz Quadrant lovingly re-rendered with even more sparkling, glowing crystals and gems. Also, because Quartz Quadrant has the best music of all of Sonic CD (JP). You can fight me on this.
2: Hill Top would be really neat, mostly because I think they could redesign it in a way that it's still recognizable, but also visually distinct from Emerald Hill and the new Green Hill. Otherwise, Aquatic Ruin would be a nice choice.
3: Carnival Night or Launch Base, just because they're relatively unappreciated and have great music and aesthetic.
&: Death Egg, if it wouldn't clash with whatever level progression Mania's going to have between its remakes and originals. Otherwise, I'd be fine with Flying Battery or Lava Reef. I guess those are kind of obvious choices, but Mushroom Hill's already had some time in the limelight, Sky Sanctuary is plenty popular, and a new desert level (which is probably going to happen, knowing the devs) would be heavily preferable to Sandopolis.
Separate names with a comma.