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Sonic Mania (Switch, PS4, Xbox One, PC...Netflix?)

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. LowSeasCaroz


    Hessia, Germany
    Desperately trying to make a Turrican clone
    I'd really like to get that vinyl soundtrack, but... money, y'know.

    A physical release for Mania on the other hand? Oh definitely. Sega of Europe is still releasing their PC games (Total War, Sonic Generations among others) boxed, because it's not that expensive (compared to consoles, especially Switch). I'd totally buy a physical PC release of Mania, and knowing the European computer games market, they could make a decent amount of profit if they put Mania on store shelves.
  2. Stimil Rc.

    Stimil Rc.

    Is there an advantage to buying physical PC releases beyond having a physical copy to put on display and maybe faster install times?

    If a physical version came out for home and handheld platforms I'd probably end up triple dipping, but only because I don't see myself being patient enough to wait until I get a Switch to have a version I can play on my monitor. Thinking about this more, a physical Vita version would be nice considering the existence of the PSTV.
  3. LukyHRE


    The only one who has a Portal-themed avatar Member
    Buenos Aires, Argentina
    Bitching and complaining about my country -.-'
    Many people, with reasons I can understand, don't like Steam. But nowadays, every single game gets digitally released through there, with little love to platforms like GOG.

    There's also the argument that having a game on a store shelve helps reaching people who don't know what Steam is (parents, mostly).
  4. For me, the main appeal of a physical release is still being able to play the game several years down the road, even if the companies releasing the game or offering it for download go out of business or stop offering the game.

    Mania made me buy something on Steam for the first time, so I have no idea if you can keep the stuff you buy from them in case they go out of business, but in general I greatly dislike the new way of "buying" things, that has you rely on some company providing you the content instead of giving you full control over it.

    It sure is convenient and cheap to buy things digitally, but you don't really own anything anymore, if you have to rely on services to access your stuff.
  5. Sappharad


    RE: All of this talk about no physical release.

    They backed themselves into a corner when they announced the collector's edition featuring a digital code. While I think they could easily do physical copies, I don't think it's realistic to expect that to happen until after the game is actually released. Otherwise many of the people who pre-ordered the collector's edition will be upset and potentially cancel their orders because the only thing they actually wanted was a physical copy of the game. The price drop so early on seems to indicate that they really want to sell all of them before the game comes out. I also think that if there is a physical release, they probably won't do it on all of the platforms, hence why they wouldn't want to step back and add it to a collector's edition because that wouldn't be fair to certain platforms and could result in people wanting to switch their orders.

    The reason I don't think they'd do a physical release on all platforms if they do one is simple. They made it clear from the start, and again with the pricing, that they consider this to be a niche title and aren't expecting it to sell as well as a mainstream title in the series. If they did a physical run, it's probably going to be limited, and I've never heard of limited runs of indie titles happening for Xbox One or Switch for example.
  6. ExecByte


    Sonic: The Lost Worlds
    I've always thought that too. I hate the idea of paying for something but not actually owning it. If the company decides to drop it you lose. (Not to mention if they decided to suddenly charge new/higher fees for a service.)

    When I saw that Sonic Mania was going to have a PC release, I was going to buy it. I didn't realize "PC release" meant "Steam release". This is a big disappointment. Now I'm not sure what I'll do.

    A physical release is the best, but I would even settle for a REAL download of the software that you actually install. You should actually own what you buy.
  7. AnimatedAF


    If this is the case they are seriously underestimating this game. I've seen many casual gaming friends of mine who haven't touched a sonic game since the mega drive days that are super excited for this. I would actually bet money on this selling better than Forces (sorry doing it again) if not for the Avatar creation which will make that also sell really well I reckon, at least to fans that have wanted that kind of thing in the series forever. If anything both games are catered to different kinds of fans but Forces probably won't appeal as much to casual gamers.
  8. Look, you got me. I can't factually back that statement up. But I think most would agree it's partially common sense. A Triple A game like Forces would be wholesaled to retailers for $50-52 and sold to consumers for $60 pre-tax. Mania, if distributed through retail, would have to be wholesaled at a price that grants the same margins, about 20%. So that means they would be wholesaling to a retailer at $16, and the retailer would only be making $4 off each copy sold, instead of $10. Hence, the marginal price of each disc sold would not be worth the cost of maintaining inventory and the whole thing falls apart. And that's assuming Sega will bear the extra costs of manufacturing the physical medium in the first place.

    Now could I be entirely wrong and unjustified in this argument? Yeah, sure. I'm not a supply chain wizard. But come on, you have to at the very least recognize the burdens of physical media when it comes to games sold at below the typical $60.
  9. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

    I can't access any of my old games on physical media either. First because I don't have access to a CD drive, and 2 because they don't work on Windows 10 anymore, so either I download the ISO and run them on DOSBox or wait for a remaster :p

    It's not that different. Specially considering like, a LOT of games with day one patches can't even launch before updating. There's a game on Nintendo Switch that even only uses the cart as 'token' to download the full game digitally. Dick move.

    I mean, I get there WAS a difference before. Not now, physical media will be phased out and will be the exception. The thing we have to fight for is to ensure that the license of use we got is preserved as required by law.
  10. Cooljerk


    Professional Electromancer Oldbie
    My dad is 66 years old and knows how Steam works.
  11. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

    A wise guy eh. I know how to DEAL with wise guys. Member
    The Land of Waldos
    Sonic Utopia, Sonic Overture
    A major issue that I see in regard to this fanbase is the large amount of bullshit ignorant statements like this, where because you do not understand why people have grown disenfranchised with the series, you supplement the cause with reasons like these, "nostalgia blindness" or "just because they're different", which has the bonus effect of invalidating your opponents by making their reasons look petty.

    Statements like these are transparent to those of us who know better. They stem from blatant ignorance of the series and the interests of the fans. Which is why it's no coincidence you would say:

    The way you put those in quotes, like they amount to nothing, showing you willfully disregard any informed argument. Opinions are not all equal. There are uninformed and informed opinions. There are arguments backed by sound theory and facts. More people are beginning to understand how the Sonic games worked, and no less thanks to the hype Sonic Mania has created causing people to reevaluate the classic games and hold them against the modern games. There's severe mechanical faults in the modern games that are provable. The elements that aren't provable can be recognized as faulty by observation, design theory and good sense.

    What's detestable is this desperate clinging to a low bar of standards, feverish efforts to justify poor design, and the willful ignorance to preserve this status quo, all while condemning anyone, especially those who have a good understanding of the Sonic games, who dares to criticize any of it.
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  12. Stimil Rc.

    Stimil Rc.

    That's what I was getting at. Don't PC games typically require players to use DRM (often times Steam) and sometimes even require a download anyway? In that sense, what difference is there between buying a physical PC game and buying a digital one as far as being able to play it is concerned? If something happens to any of the companies that make you verify your ownership, you're forced to pirate it to regain access.

    With consoles, it makes sense because aside from patches, the only thing a player needs to play is the medium the game came on. As far as I know, at least. I know the PS4 and Xbox One require installs, but I don't know if any games require something to be downloaded before being able to play.
    I can understand the aversion to GOG. They sell DRM free games, which most AAA developers aren't going to want to do.

    As for parents, would most of them even think to buy PC games for their children at retail stores to begin with? In a time where video games are typically associated with Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony's platforms, I'd imagine anyone looking to purchase games for the PC to be more informed about their options especially since physical games released for PC are so uncommon these days, at least in the US.

    The best I can see this accomplishing is letting uninformed parents know that playing these types of games on the PC is even possible.
  13. SonicGenesis89


    Cool! Sweet! And Catchy! Member
    Green Hill Zone
    Collecting Sonic Manga
    Reposting this since Photobucket really sucks. I went to bed and didn't realize that the pictures I had posted weren't showing up. I'm really sorry about that.

    While we wait for the new Sonic Mania artwork to be officially released, I decided to try and restore the E3 Poster and the Vinyl Soundtrack artwork so that we can view them in better quality in the meantime. I also added them to the Wiki until we get the official versions in high quality. :)


  14. Sonikko


    Bird Member
    I don't really understand this claim that people don't like Forces because they're against anything Sonic Team puts out. Especially when some of us have been writing elaborate comments and explanations on what's wrong with the games, how they can be improved and why Mania's doing things right.
    Using an engine that faithfully reproduces the classic physics and gameplay is not nostalgia pandering, it is what any 2D (or 2.5D) Sonic game should do. The remixed levels are playing the nostalgia card, but at least they're doing that the right way. The asthetics and the original design philosophy is faithfully captured and reproduced, if not improved in some cases.
    There's nothing Mania is doing that is in any way worse than in the classic games. And even then the point that Mania, or at least its sequel, should have all original new content is often brought up.
    The same can't be said by Sonic 4, which you named (and I really don't know how you could even be defending that game), Generations and now Forces. The classic gameplay is botchered, misrepresented and misreproduced. There's nothing in those games that plays (or looks) anywhere as good as the classics, even if they're still trying to cater to that demographic.

    The modern games, while fun to some extent, have been deeply flawed and I don't see how even modern fans can be happy about them. The 3D gameplay has been barely touched, almost the entirety of those games have been 2.5D gameplay, not well executed either.
    While I'd love for modern Sonic to be more in line with the classics and make use of physics and clever level design, I think a fully 3D modern game without padding (either in the form of other gameplay styles, classic Sonic, OCs, Werehog and secondary acts in Colours, or in the form of padded level design with long stretches of quicksteps, empty hallways and unimaginative design overall) could work. I think the boost is a flawed formula that would require a complete redesign to work efficiently, but a competently designed game, even with the boost, could be at least more enjoyable.

    You'd think that in 10 years of attempts they'd have the modern gameplay figured out, but they don't, and there's no excuse for it. It's been 10 years. 10.
    I mean, if you're a modern fan that isn't that much into classic gameplay, why are you happy with Forces when 2/3rd of the game (if not more) are going to be in 2D? They're barely touching 3D Sonic because they have no idea what to do with it. That's a big issue, they can't competently manage their own character.

    The only reason Sonic Team gets away with this is that Sonic fans have no standards. Anything with Sonic's face slapped on it is good, and it's a big issue. If people have no standards, the teams don't have to have standards either, and that makes up for low quality products.
    Remember that SEGA is a corporation, they sell you products, they're not your friends or your family. And neither is Sonic.
    I'm not saying that you shouldn't enjoy the modern games, I'm saying that people should develop some standards and not look at the games with rose tinted glasses, because they have objective flaws and stuff that people don't like.
    We're not criticizing them because we hate Sonic Team or Dimps, or whatever, we're criticizing them because Sonic has a huge potential, both in 2D and 3D, and up to now, the series has stagnated and hasn't really tried improving in any way. I might even say that Forces does make some steps back from Generations.
    If people aren't unhappy with Mania it's not because someone other than Sonic Team's developing it, it's because it's the first game in 20 years that looks legitly good. And it's not just Sonic fans saying that, take a look on the internet and press reviews. Forces has been barely mentioned, while Mania is everywhere.

    Thank you so much. They look great.
  15. Stimil Rc.

    Stimil Rc.

    Hello new desktop background! I'd seriously considering buying that likely to be overpriced art book if it contained a bunch of art like these and that Studiopolis poster.
  16. Overlord


    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    Long-term happiness
    This is utter bollocks, and let me tell you why.

    1) "The size makes it not worth it"
    Ikaruga [NTSC-U] Gamecube - 145MB. There are other examples, this is the one that immediately springs to mind. The usage of the storage media is an utter non-issue.

    2) "The cost makes it not worth it" - Release of a game that was formerly download only - on shop shelves, for £20. Mania would be more than acceptable at this price. Releasing on physical media at a lower price is therefore also an utter non-issue.

    3) "The size of the print run makes it not worth it"
    Someone ought to tell that they can't sell game runs at their typical size of less than 5000 copies, they obviously lose money every time. :( (tl;dr - the size of the print run is also a non-issue, moreso on a game that you know is going to sell as well as Mania is doing through preorders).
  17. Cooljerk


    Professional Electromancer Oldbie
    Hell, take it a step further - if places like Songbird games can justify prints of 500 for Atari Jaguar cartridges in 2015, which assuredly would be more expensive to produce than a pressed CD, there is no way a company like Sega couldn't.

    Even if you want to discount the Jaguar release of Another World as some sort of anomoly, look at Watermelon Games, or the release of Beggar's Prince. Or look at Unholy Night, the SNES fighting game by ex-SNK staff, which is doing it on an operating budget of $23k, which also include development costs.

    Don't at all buy for a moment that a physical Sonic Mania release is logistically impossible. Heck, I bet the electronic statue in the collector's edition costs more to produce.
  18. TimmiT


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Member
    Tbh not really sure how Sony managed to sell Wipeout HD Fury for a higher price than the digital release. Cause retailers usually don't want to do that. Games tend to cost the same both physically and digitally because if they were cheaper digitally less retailers would want to stock the game. So Sega probably wouldn't just be able to sell a physical Sonic Mania release for a higher price than its digital release.

    For example: Puyo Puyo Tetris costs €40 on Switch both physically and digitally. On PS4 it costs €30. The reason for the price difference is the cost of Switch cartridges. The digital version is affected as well cause it has to be the same price as the physical release.

    That being said, there seem to be ways around that. Rime's Switch version was going to cost $10 more on Switch both digitally and physically cause of the cartridge costs thing. However they later made it so the digital release would cost the same as on other platforms, by including a digital code for the soundtrack in the physical release. I imagine something similar might be possible with a Sonic Mania physical retail release. Then again, the "include soundtrack CD with game" thing was done with Cave Story + on Switch as well and that ended up costing $30 both physically and digitally so ¯\_(?)_/¯.

    Still, it might be possible to do something like a Limited Run release. Limited Run can afford to do more expensive physical releases because they don't have to convince retailers to sell them, as they sell them through their own store. Though even then the question is if Sega would want to do that.
  19. SF94


    Tech Member
    It was an example. None of the rest of the footage of the stage redeems it from being uninteresting. Point was, while I agree the "worst" part about Mania thus far looks to be the unchanged classic stages--Green Hill in this specific example--I'd take them over the Forces iterations any day simply on the basis of their design, not nostalgia. Like I said for this example in particular, I don't even like Sonic 1. I specifically never bought it for my Genesis after trying it. Plus I would argue that the spectacle still serves an actual purpose in the classics nine times out of ten.

    The difference here is that if you don't have speed to maintain your momentum, this section serves to help you regain it. In Generations Green Hill (which I also agree isn't all that great, but mostly due to the lack of momentum that Classic Sonic has), the momentum means nothing because it's impossible to maintain due to the way Classic Sonic handles. You still lose speed rolling down slopes. While it does look to be improved in Forces, strictly in those mechanical terms, this isn't a problem in Mania because its mechanics were solid from the start. That's another reason I'd play it over forces. That's purely mechanical functionality, not nostalgia.

    All I'm trying to say is: I believe that nostalgia (or knowledge of the developers' origins) is not a significant factor in what inclines people to perceive it as good despite the stages from older games. I'm personally more excited for the new stages than the old ones, and a new stage was basically the first one to be showcased, so... yeah, I'm not seeing it at this point man. :v:

    edit: god damn /> on the emoticons
  20. why y'all gotta flame up muh thread? we already got record heat in LA this weekend