Sonic Mania Plus SPOILER THREAD with UNMARKED spoilers!

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Hinchy, Apr 25, 2018.

  1. CollectiveWater

    CollectiveWater

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    Yeah the Encore save menu music and pinball bonus stage "Trap Tower" remix are both incredible. Our boy Tee out there slaying it like always. Can't wait to get my hands on the JP CD for them lossless files.


    I think "Plus" is just gonna make all of us want a "Mania 2" with all original zones even more. Please Sega, give the dev team the proper amount of money, time, and resources to deliver the goods. We'd love you for it.
     
  2. Beltway

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    I think sales of Plus will be the definitive say in that if you ask me, though the great reviews are certainly making a good case (it's going to be astonishing if the Switch version of Plus can stay within the 90s range, no Sonic game aside from Taxman's CD 2011 remake on iOS has ever broke into the 90s realm on any of the three critical aggregates). Hopefully general consumers and fans alike allow Plus needs to add onto the original Mania sales in a meaningful way.

    It's going to be really interesting to see how Mania is going to perform in the UK in particular next week, due to their still-lingering nostalgia/brand support for the series. They continued to buy Forces well after everyone else dropped the game; and according to Sega, Mania "technically" outsold Crash N-Sane on the original opening week of its release, I think Mania Plus could hit a magic sweet spot of UK Sega/classic Sonic nostalgia, the budget price, and great reviews. If things really work well in Mania's favor, the Hedgehog genuinely giving the Bandicoot (who saw a ridiculous runaway success over there last year with the N-Sane trilogy, and seems to be doing it again with the multiplatform release) a tenacious run for his money for the top spot in the coming weeks/months. With that said, I also expect Mania Plus to generally do good in Europe overall, given how most of Mania's (available) reports on the eShop came from that region. Europe when all is said and done could probably be the region where Mania Plus could see the most success overall.
     
  3. TimmiT

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    I hope you all liked it when the special stages in the normal mode got obnoxiously hard.

    Cause oh boy
     
  4. Dark Sonic

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    Hey question. What did they do with mirage saloon act 1 for Mighty and Ray in Mania mode? Do they use the Encore mode level or something else?

    Also what's their intro in Mania mode?
     
  5. CollectiveWater

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    ^^Oh, that's a good question Dark Sonic.

    Ha, I can't wait for those special stages. I love the fact that Encore is hard mode intended for people who are really good at "Mania" already. I still feel like most players should be able to get through Encore without much trouble--it seems like there's many character monitors throughout all the zones. The jump in difficulty for the special stages is definitely more pronounced than just the regular game, but personally I love that since the special stages are a breeze in the main game for me. And there's something nice about making it a real challenge to be able to go super; always bummed when I see people who get all the emeralds and go super by like the second or third zone of a Sonic game and then they play the rest of the game in super form. (I get all the emeralds super quickly too but never use super right away and hardly ever use it since I just like playing the game normally.)

    Just like with people who don't like Blue Sphere, I'd just recommend to people that find the new special stages too challenging to just skip 'em. Ain't needed to beat the game. We've all seen what the new all emeralds ending is--ain't anything super special and no one's missing much of anything not getting it. Plus in this day and age it's super easy to just watch the all emeralds ending online--hell, we already can.

    (I also really love that there's no lives/you just add more characters with character monitors. I always finish a "Mania" run with 35-50+ lives and never have to think twice about caring how many I have, so it'll be nice for dying to actually feel like it has some consequence in Encore mode.)

    I totally get that most people aren't as good at 2D Sonic as someone like OcelotBot (who is better than I am/one of the best non-speedrunning players I've seen) and that Encore, particularly the special stages, might be too difficult for them. Though as I just said they can easily skip the special stages and most should be able to beat Encore without too much trouble (especially once they realize they should always get character monitors when they see them/have all 5 character icons in the bottom left), there's always still Mania mode to go back to as well. Allowing Ray/Mighty to be played as in Mania mode might have even been partially done for people who find Encore to be too difficult (aside from them also knowing we'd all want to do so as fans of the characters anyway)--that way even people who find Encore too hard can still enjoy the characters and not feel like they completely wasted their money on the DLC. And playing as Ray or Mighty in Mania mode should make that even more of a breeze than a Tails run.

    So yeah in essence by getting the DLC you're getting both a hard mode (Encore) and an easy mode (Ray or Mighty in Mania mode). Pretty neat.
     
  6. TimmiT

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    Dunno if this is something that was known already but something I just noticed in Competition Mode for 2 players:

    [​IMG]

    They added a screen layout option where the screen isn't all stretched out.
     
  7. Dark Sonic

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    Yup that was confirmed with the PS4 update a while back. That'll be a post patch update for everyone.
     
  8. 360

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    This is what everyone is hoping for. I'd say cross your fingers for something at the Comic Con Sonic panel next week. Then again:

    Yeow's probably on the mark here - that Mania Plus and its potential sales will be a heavy influencer in terms of whether we get more Mania. Vanilla Mania clearing a million and climbing is a very positive indicator but we've already seen the effect of that with them green-lighting an expanded special edition of the game and web-series. So it's incredibly likely that more Mania including a potentially all-original sequel will be determined and directed purely on the sales of Plus.

    As for the UK market Sonic was absolutely massive here and arguably became a greater icon here than he was in North America. It does help that the Master System and Megadrive destroyed Nintendo at the time so Sega's console domination is pretty much the reason why there's so much nostalgia for Sonic and his games. Back then everyone I knew - and I mean everyone - had a Megadrive and Sonic 1 and 2. I'd say Mania Plus coming in at number one in the UK on launch is a safe-bet given it's a successor to those games and would also hazard that the game will do well at retail wherever there's fondness for Sega and Sonic in general i.e. Europe and North America.

    At a guess if there's nothing announced at Comic Con we should have news on Mania 2, whether it be via an announcement or even just a comment from Sonic Team in a future interview or something - by the end of 2018. We just have to hope Plus does well because that'll ultimately be the deciding factor.
     
  9. Dark Sonic

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    Found the answer to my own question. Mighty and Ray share Sonic & Tails' intro and they both go through Sky Chase Mirage Saloon.

    Kinda lame :/ However I noticed a cool new feature. When you complete the game it'll show you a break down of how much time you spent in each level and it shows you your total time. I think that's really cool. It breaks down everything too, from time spent in special stages and time spent in bonus stages.
     
  10. CollectiveWater

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    Yeah sales of "Plus" will likely be a factor in what they decide to do with the 2D series next. But also Sega had a great 2017 fiscally (I think they were 3rd in terms of money made of all publishers). And even if the quality of the games had been plummeting for a decade and a half prior to "Mania" (outside of "Colors" and "Generations"), Sonic is still a huge name. It seems pretty obvious to me the "Mania" dev team is Sega's greatest chance (and perhaps their last) to totally revitalize the interest in and success of Sonic, on a critical and cultural level.

    Point being: even if Sega viewed "Mania" as being a moderate financial success, or even if it was viewed as a failure, it has clearly been a critical success and made people think more positively about Sonic than they have in a long, long time. And like I said, Sega had a great year last year financially from their overall business. They could bankroll a sequel if they wanted to even if they viewed "Mania" as a failure financially, and would have reason to do so since it has clearly been good for Sonic and the company overall.

    That said, I'm sure they'd like the sequel to be more of a financial success than the first one has been. That's why it seems imperative they give the team more money, time, and resources to make an entirely original game that is critically received even better than the first and sells better as a result. Have a physical copy ready to go on day one and advertise the hell out of it like they did "Sonic 2" back in the day, and I think the sequel could be the second-best selling Sonic game ever. (It's not gonna top the first one since it benefitted from all those console pack-in sales, but still it could do very well.) And then take that newfound financial and cultural success with Sonic and try to apply it and finally do something great with 3D Sonic. Give 3D Sonic to a proven developer interested in the property and give them the proper amount of money, time, and resources to deliver something great.

    Hell, Nintendo has shown a willingness to work with outside publishers and developers recently, to great success. Could you imagine if the "Galaxy"/"Odyssey" Nintendo EPD team made a 3D Sonic game exclusively for Switch? Might sound like a pipe dream, but so did the idea of Nintendo allowing another publisher/developer make a game starring and set in the world of Mario prior to "Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle." Jun Senoue has a "Mega Man 4" rendition in "Smash Bros. Ultimate." Dogs and cats have been living together for quite a while now. (And of course let's not forget Nintendo and Sega have worked together before, when Nintendo let Sega make "F-Zero GX." Sure it was a financial failure, but it was a critical success/considered the best in the series by many fans. And Nintendo making a Sonic game would be much more of a surefire thing financially than "F-Zero" was at the time.)

    To be clear: I definitely don't think a 3D Sonic game made by Nintendo is going to happen, just that it's not completely beyond the realm of possibility at this point. And I do think there are many great third-party developers Sega could let make a 3D Sonic game for them. Sega could also hire many new talented people and try to drastically switch things up internally for the next game. It does seem pretty clear they need to do something, though, if they want 3D Sonic to be as critically and culturally relevant as the 2D series and have a bright future again.

    But all of that is off-track/not relevant for this "Plus" thread. I guess my ultimate point is just that: Sega can and should greenlight another 2D Sonic game from the "Mania" dev team, whether they view the first one as being enough of a financial success to do so or not, because the first game has done wonders for Sonic critically and culturally and they are in a great position to have the second game do even better than the first critically and financially. They just need to play their cards right and give the "Mania" dev team enough money, time, and resources to actually deliver an even better sequel. And of course make sure they have a nice physical version ready for day one. Let's hope it happens.
     
  11. HEDGESMFG

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    I still stand by everything I've said before.

    Sonic's best chance for success?

    Appealing to kids again.

    Yes, I know he's ALWAYS been a children's character (He first premiered in the prime of my childhood at age 6 and here I am now, still here, so hey), but I REALLY hope kids see Mania on shelves and want it for themselves. We need the Mario/Pokemon effect on this game for it to truly become a subfranchise. Sometimes that has happened with Modern Sonic (Generations sold pretty well during the years I worked as a Gamestop Manager, specifically as a solid game for parents to buy for kids), and Mania again has that potential, but SEGA needs to push it a bit more.

    Still, I can't complain. This is Mania's definitive version, and it's nearly everything I wanted. Most of my issues with the vanilla release are fixed by the patch, let alone the actual DLC/extra mode.

    If Mania (and by extension classic 2D Sonic) can appeal to kids AND nostalgic adults... we're sure to see more of this. If the market demand was already saturated by last year's (admittedly successful) sales? Then we're sadly a bit tapped out. Fortunately, Mania seems to have outsold forces, while likely still being much less costly to create, which is a huge positive. We shall see.

    Pre-Order your copies, guys. Buy a console and Switch version so you can have a portable version too. Or at least spend the 5$ on the DLC. Every dollar will count here.
     
  12. Multi Battler

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    Excusez moi, but 'as a company we have this really great mascot character and all it does, after almost 30 years, is 2D platforming': Man, do I really live in a world where it's impossible for Sega / Sonic Team to make a proper 3D Sonic game? Part of me wants them to do it, you know

    Either way I'm eager to find out how the changes to the gameplay come across. That was a first, no?
     
  13. Dark Sonic

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    Kirby has largely stayed 2D and rather formulaic since its conception and is doing just fine.

    Yes I'd love 3D Sonic to work but just saying, sticking to what you know isn't always a bad thing.
     
  14. HEDGESMFG

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    No one says we wouldn't enjoy a well crafted 3D Sonic experience, we just want them to keep the classic franchise going. That's all.

    Forces wasn't massively successful, but that doesn't mean a good 3D game can never happen. (I'd argue at least Generations, Colors, and Adventure 2 are solid well made titles, if nothing else.) And other fan concepts like SRB2 and to a lesser extent Utopia prove that taking the more Genesis style concept into 3D is at least 'possible' on a theoretical level.

    Now, whether the current Sonic Team can create that game is a debate for another thread, but this isn't about that. I just want them to allow a 2D Classic Taxman/crew led Sonic 'sub-franchise' to exist. Like Boom, but not sucky.

    We've been heading that way since 2011, we're almost to the point where we can own a physical copy of a game produced by Retro/SFGHQ's (yes, to me this dates back to those days) own community members, sold on the mass market. That's pretty effing crazy by itself.
     
  15. Multi Battler

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    If I had to guess I'd say that's because Kirby doesn't rely so much on physics-based gameplay and attitude. >:) 3D Kirby could be easily achieved.
     
  16. Laughingcow

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    No, it's cause they don't try to shove a new Kirby game up our ass every year.

    Remember, Sonic is Sega's Call of Duty but unlike Call of Duty which has three different studios working on different games, we just have Sonic Team which we have no idea as to the internal structure.
     
  17. CollectiveWater

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    Totally agreed Dark Sonic. As long as you're improving upon that proven formula as you go along (e.g. Sonic 1-->2). Could you imagine if the spin dash had not been thought of/implemented in "Sonic 2," and was never implemented in the series? Sticking to a proven formula is fine, as long as you're refining and making worthwhile additions that improve the core base that was already there.

    And HEDGESMFG, personally I wouldn't want the "Mania" dev team to be making 2D Sonic games for the rest of their careers. I'm honestly just hoping for 1, maybe 2 more from them. A sequel that has all original zones (of course taking inspiration and elements from the past) being what I'd love to see most. I think it'd be great if after that they're then allowed to make a more experimental 2D Sonic game; essentially allow them to do their own version of "Sonic CD." Would be fitting since "CD" is clearly high-up on the list of their favorite classic games. Just allow them to totally mix it up and do something different with 2D Sonic than "Mania" and (hopefully) "Mania 2." And honestly at that point they should probably move on to other exciting projects and try to do what they did with "Mania" for other properties or make their own original games. These folks are so good that I know they can make great games other than 2D Sonic as well. (They already have made some.)

    Hopefully "Mania" and "Plus" is a stepping stone to one or two more great 2D Sonic games from this team, the same way the Retro Engine versions of CD, 1, and 2 were stepping stones to "Mania" and "Plus." (And how all the fan work was a stepping stone to those Retro Engine versions, etc.)
     
  18. HEDGESMFG

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    I'm not saying the Mania team needs to stick with this formula forever, but I think a new "trilogy" would be the dream, with "Mania" 2-3 having much more original content. And at least one of the potential titles should be fully original content.

    Is that realistic? I have no clue. Also, as good as Stealth/Tax are at what they do, I'm sure that with the engine in place, others could take up the mantle and still create something decent. A lot of our beef with Sonic Team/SEGA has been with vision/direction... and Mania's success clearly demonstrates that Genesis style still has merit and should be kept in mind for at least another game or two. Also, 2D Sonic as a concept may indeed have its limits. The titles are much more complex than, say, Megaman... so creating 10+ classic style titles would just get tiring eventually, I'm sure.

    But I firmly believe this team has at least one more new title in them, and others may continue using the engine to produce a 3rd. We shall see.
     
  19. 360

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    Fantastic post CollectiveWater with some excellent points (everything you said) but I do feel the need to add to what I specifically quoted above.

    Sonic Mania is unequivocally a massive financial success. It was developed in a very limited amount of time by an extremely small development team and released digitally - and we know it has sold at least one million units. Even that number is out of date now and Mania has likely sold much more since then. Shovel Knight, which is a good comparison as the development team is of similar size, the game was developed within a similar development timeframe and was released (well, eventually anyway) on a similar platform spread reached over a million in sales and the devs called that a massive, massive success. I believe they said something to the effect of "beyond our wildest dreams numbers". Point is, Mania is very comparable to an indie game like Shovel Knight given the short dev time, similar size of the dev team, similar indie-level price point, digital only release and quite crucially and importantly, similar very low development costs (Mania would have been much, much cheaper to produce than something like Forces) meaning breaking even/profit is much easier and achievable. Within the indie sphere of comparable games of similar dev cost 100K in sales is considered a success. Mania sold ten times that.

    Obviously you could argue that a game is only a success if it meets the financial/sales expectations of the publisher (see: Bioshock Infinite) but Mania also succeeded there given that Sega Sammy financial report that stated Mania's unexpected strong sales performance dramatically increased their revenue for that sales period which heavily infers it met and likely surpassed expectations - and further evidence would be the commissioning of Mania Plus and Mania Adventures. A game only gets a special edition if the original game is an extremely strong success both critically and commercially and the same is true for a television series being produced (Adventures is a web-series, but still - it only happened because Mania did well). Plus and Adventures only exist because Sega considered Mania, including its sales performance, a huge success. So Mania is, without a shadow of a doubt, a success in the eyes of those that matter (as in, Sega). And I think we're going to see the consequences of that towards the end of 2018 where something similar to Plus will be announced (as in, a new game) as Plus almost inevitably does well too. Either an outright Mania 2 or something that affirms Sega intent to make it.

    Anyway that's all I wanted to say. You always have such amazing posts so wanted to kind of write an "addendum" to it. Looking forward to your future posts in this thread.
     
  20. Hanging Waters

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    So I just had a conversation over at the Smash Bros subreddit.
    There's a 4chan leak going around that claims the source knows all the details in Nintendo's July 22nd Direct.

    One particularly interesting bit claims that a trailer for Sonic Mania Plus will be shown in the Direct, along with the announcement of Metal Sonic as a playable character in development. Apparently some of the details in it about Pokémon Pop figures and MK8 DLC have been somewhat correct.

    Now this obviously can't be true; there are a few reasons for this...... the first probably being that TimmiT and a few others already have the finished and packaged game. But apparently there are some that are still holding out for it?