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Sonic Jam commentaries tell all~

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Scarred Sun, May 23, 2008.

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  1. Vangar

    Vangar

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    What the hell is going on here? We all had this information before... why is everyone so shocked to re-read this? I'm not going to bother searching topics but by all means go ahead and find that we already knew all of this. We already had strong indication that there were time zones and we already had a discussion about the Sonic Jam information, and led to the same conclusion. Did everyone get amnesia?
     
  2. Uberham

    Uberham

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    Wildass fuckoff theory here, but there's no solid explanation of why Sonic & Tails even decide to get on the fucking plane in the first place, SO, with GCZ being one act, and you think "I know this from Sonic 1, one last level". Except, no, Robotnik does a runner (possible reason for metal sonic/Robotnik running animation) into his Wing Fortress and away.

    THEN you get on the plane, Robotnik is chucking Badniks galore at you, so you slow down, finall, after an epic "sky chase" you get to wing fortress, only to have the fat fucker PULL THE SAME SHIT AGAIN.

    Chase to death egg, possible short "no rings" zone, leading to the final boss be all know and love.

    [/wildass theory]
     
  3. Nemesis

    Nemesis

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    Well I for one had never put all those peices together before. A lot of those points only gain credibility when you can link them to something else.


    I found this interesting:
    Code (Text):
    1. [00:46] <Tweaker> so I think it's pretty much needless to say that his words hold credibility over others re:HPZ for example
    2. [00:46] <Tweaker> so HPZ was indeed where Super Sonic would get his powers
    3. [00:47] <Tweaker> See
    4. [00:47] <Shade> someone make a topic
    5. [00:47] <Tweaker> THAT'S why HPZ was scrapped
    6. [00:47] <Tweaker> It was too ambitious
    7. [00:47] <Tweaker> and they didn't have enough time to do what they wanted
    8. [00:47] <Tweaker> it all fits together
    I don't know how many of you know, but do you realise that if you play S2 through to the end, then start a new game, you keep your emeralds? IE, if you've got all the emeralds on one playthrough, you can start a new game after the credits roll, and as soon as you grab 50 rings in your new game you're SuperSonic again. I always figured this was unintentional; just a memory address they forgot to clear when starting a new game. Maybe in reality it was intentional though, like an easter egg. If you couldn't turn into SuperSonic until after HPZ, which obviously has to be a fair way into the game, that would mean you couldn't play the first levels as SuperSonic. Unless of course, you knew about this easter egg. If you get all the emeralds and unlock SuperSonic, then finish the game and start a new one, you get to keep your emeralds and your "enable SuperSonic" flag, allowing you to play through those first levels as SuperSonic too. It's not nearly as significant when you can get SuperSonic in EHZ act 2, but if you couldn't normally get SuperSonic until the end of the game, it's a lot more interesting, and the kind of thing I could imagine being deliberately added.
     
  4. nineko

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    My exact same thought. The only problem I see with that is that HTZ is located in mountain, and EHZ has an island in the background.
     
  5. Flygon

    Flygon

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    that's a good observation there :P, the only argument I can come up for any sort of time travel stuff there is that earthquakes forced mountains up very rapidly.
     
  6. Adamis

    Adamis

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    I've thought of something, but I may be wrong.
    Some weeks ago, someone said the music of Hidden Palace sounds similar to the music of Sonic 1's Special Stages. Well, maybe it's not a coïncidence, both places are connected to the emeralds (the special stages let you get them; HPZ was supposed to grant you the Super Sonic form)...
     
  7. Flygon

    Flygon

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    I have to say that is a nice observation and it pretty much adds more proof to backing this up.

    I just have one more question, what are the remaining mystery's of Sonic 2 because I think this event has pretty much cleared the remaining...

    Edit: I need to learn to type.
     
  8. STHX

    STHX

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    Even if it is very likely true, there are still no proof that different timelines were supposed to be in the game.
    However this definately cleared every doubt on the scrapped Zones.
     
  9. MathUser

    MathUser

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    I don't know about this time travel malarkey. Hill top and emerald hill zone were in the game since the nick arcade beta. They look quite different and have a totally different layout from one another, not to mention the different backgrounds. I say this is proof Time travel was abandoned at least by the nick arcade prototype.
     
  10. Puto

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    Part of Team Megamix, but haven't done any actual work in ages.
    That might explain why they only implemented the super sonic transformation routine at the very last minute...
     
  11. Ambil

    Ambil

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    Excellent review, Tweaker. Mind if I translate it and post it at Sonic Spain?

    So this is the deal, I felt indeed that Metropolis act 3 was very different from that. Now it's not difficult for me to imagine that level combined with the early concept art of Cyber City.

    About Hidden Palace being the place for Sonic to become Super Sonic, I remember back in time when everybody here said it was stupid to say the 'Master Emerald' was the place, because Craig Stitt said that was just a breakable object. But then, Naka revealed this.

    Old stories.

    Haven't read about the other issues (early GHZ, FBZ+ICZ), so expect another reply.
     
  12. Tweaker

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    For the people trying to make the Emerald Hill-->Hill Top connection... I don't think there's anything there. The only connection those two zones share is the fact that they used the same graphics, which was likely a plan they had from the beginning. Following the trend of things, if Hill Top was a timezone of Emerald Hill, it would have been scrapped like the rest of them.

    What I believe is more likely is that EHZ and HTZ share a connection like Desert Zone and Winter Zone did—they shared the same graphics with a palette change, spread far apart enough in the game so that the player wouldn't notice. Of course, they didn't count on the fact that we weren't retarded, but that seems much more plausible than slapping a timezone theory on every zone.

    The bulk of what I said is associating scrapped zones in Sonic 2 (save for Hidden Palace, which had other reasons) with the concept of time travel. Any zones left in the game do not have that association.

    This is just like a told Quexinos—you believed and "knew" these things, but you believed them for the wrong reasons. Now the pieces are starting to fit together, and the ideas actually hold some credibility.

    That would be a good way to debunk this if EHZ and HTZ had any relation, but they don't. :P
     
  13. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    It would make sense if Mecha Sonic was originally planned for that level... and about the music, it could have used the Death Egg tune, while the Death Egg would've just had the final boss music like the "Final Zone" did.

    By the way... I think it was Tom Payne who told me the guys at SEGA just weren't too happy with Brenda's work, partly because she was too slow when making them. No time travel conspirancies here.

    Also, remember that the time travel stuff was already ditched when all the people we've contacted started working on the project. So all the stuff that involved time travel (ie., Rock Zone) wouldn't have benn assigned to anybody.
     
  14. RAMPKORV

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    Or the water level decreased. However, I think there is no connection at all, other than they thought the graphics would look good in both levels, and reused because of lazyness.
     
  15. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Yeah, really. We only got some info from Naka agreeing with something we had been told already...

    We won't find any new info about these games by just talking about them in a chatroom, unless there's some ex-SEGA employee in it.
     
  16. FinalBeyond

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    Whether this is accurate or not, I have to say, it opens up a heck of a lot of possibilities. I'd love to see a hack in the model of some of the things suggested in here.
     
  17. Tweaker

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    Yeah... see, I'm challenging that. Didn't Roger Hector say that all of Michael Jackson's music was removed from Sonic 3? It would have made sense to take the word of the developers, but when we find things that can completely topple what they say, don't you think it's time to open up to the possibility that they could have been wrong?

    I've had huge discussions and thoughts about Sonic 2's development. I think there's something deeper going on here. I think we've connected some pieces here they didn't make any sense before. And I think one of those pieces that still doesn't make sense is that statement of why things like Wood Zone, Desert Zone, et al were scrapped. I don't believe it was simply "not good enough."

    But do you know that for sure? When it comes to Desert/Rock Zone, those were already gone pretty early on. Ditching the Desert Zone as a whole, though, does not completely close off the idea of time travel—there are still Wood Zone and Cyber City drawing parallels with other levels. It's possible to ditch a zone and not a concept.

    In this sense, Rock Zone wouldn't have been assigned an artist because the zone it was meant to parallel was already gone. The other levels suggesting that concept were still alive and well at this point, however.

    Remember that we still have a pretty shallow range when it comes to the evolution of things like Cyber City and other zones. By the Wai prototype, Cyber City had already been transformed into Metropolis Act 3—we don't know anything that happened before that.

    Something I want us to do is draw a timeline between the airing of the showing of Nick Arcade with our NA prototype, and the date of the article with the first mockup for the Desert Zone. I had always thought that the Desert Zone was in the game at a very early point, but it's possible that may not have been so now.
     
  18. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    ...What did I miss? We haven't found anything to disprove that Brenda's work was slow and sloppy. In fact, seeing how not even Wood Zone was ever finished and how flat it looked, I'd say that it makes sense they ditched the zones she was working on. Had they have to wait till she finished, they wouldn't have met the deadline anyway.
    He also told me about the third act being added to replace Cyber City, before Naka's quote was found. So I'd say he has some credibility on this.

    Well... None of the American SEGA guys we've contacted could tell us a thing about any time travel or alternate zones.


    Really, this is so 90's I can't believe I'm reading it in this board. Please try to contact somebody else from the Sonic 2 staff before we start debating about Ashura's family. =(
     
  19. Scarred Sun

    Scarred Sun

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    Welp, this.
    Frankly, I'm not sure that the two ideas are incompatible at all—if "time travel" was dropped due to time constraints, certainly having sloppy and slow work being produced would be part of what went in to that decision.
     
  20. Tweaker

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    If it's because Brenda is slow and sloppy, then that's one thing—but, as Scarred Sun just said, who says it can't be for both? I'm a firm believer that time constraints had a lot to do with why this game is gimped, so that could be one part of it. What I'm suggesting is that there's more to it than simply that, and that Brenda's poor ability to make zones in time may have played a vital part in why the time travel concept was scrapped. I mean, with Wood Zone and the Desert Zone gone, that leaves only one level exploring the time travel concept... why bother keeping it around then? It's out of place, and no longer has an important part in the storyline. Note that they reused Cyber City's layout—they didn't have a reason to scrap the zone outside of time travel being dropped, so they simply snagged the layout and used it in Metropolis Zone. Makes sense to me.

    Indeed, he told you the third act thing before this quote was found. The problem is, this quote has been around for 10 years! Why did it take this long to find it? That's pretty absurd.

    American Sega guys... wasn't that Desert Zone concept in Japanese? And wasn't that Japanese concept art what pretty much confirmed time travel was planned for the game? Something tells me we're going after the wrong SEGA employees.

    Wow, you're a dick. In the 90s of this scene, there was absolutely nothing credible to even suggest this. Now that we've got all these pieces slowly fitting together, it makes sense to actually revisit and consider how big of a role that time travel had in this game. I'm well aware this speculation has been raised before, but I like to think that we've brought about a certain degree of reasoning about it that makes more sense than "Metropolis Zone act 3 is a bad future of the normal zone."

    Finally, I believe that giving your own insight rather than screaming "OLD" all the time will prove to have much more a positive, useful impact on this discussion. You're not better than anyone else—explain yourself! I sure did. :)
     
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