Sonic - Into The Void

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Blueblur93, Mar 21, 2014.

  1. Hi all!

    It's been a few weeks since I've uploaded "Sonic - Into the Void" onto Sonic Retro, and I thought I'd break the ice and share the love, by telling you about my hack in a bit more detail and the funny history of it.


    [​IMG]


    The story behind it all is this:

    (Note: This story takes place directly after Sonic Generations.)

    After Classic Sonic celebrates his 20[sup]th[/sup] birthday with Modern Sonic and friends, Classic Sonic and Classic Tails jump into a portal which leads them into the Void. Both era's Eggmans are stuck in the White Space, however they accidentally stumble upon an opening to the Void, seeing Classic Sonic and Tails soaring across. The Eggmans fire their laser pistols through the opening, hoping to hit Sonic and Tails, but their attempt failed and hits the Void. The Void then becomes highly aggravated and unstable, which splits Sonic and Tails up and sends them to their own time. However, expecting to return to his own time, Sonic ends up what seems to be Green Hill Zone, but he could see something was wrong. Green Hill Zone has transformed into a place called Midnight Aurora Zone. Due to the disturbance in the Void, the Time Continuum for Sonic has been completely distorted. Sonic thinks that maybe collecting all 6 Chaos emeralds will restore the Time Continuum, but he does also notice that all these events involving travelling through generations and the Time Eater seem oddly connected in a diabolical way...

    ALL WILL BE REVEALED ON MAY 12[sup]TH [/sup]2014!


    Sounds exciting? Well you'll have to wait.

    Anyway, now let me tell you about the funny history of where this hack once began.

    On November 2012, my curiosity took over me after playing so many Sonic hacks, and I decided to create a hack. Originally, the hack was going to be just a mere palette and level layout mod hack. On February 2013, my laptop needed a memory clean up, and you know what I'm about to say... I accidentally, permanently deleted my hack, [​IMG] and so from that moment on I gave up doing a Sonic Hack.

    Later in the year, about June, I got over the horrific incident in February, and I thought lets try again. Similar to the previous build, my hack was just a palette and level edit hack. In July, the first version was finally complete and released on YouTube only. The next release update only consisted of a couple of minor tweaks to the levels, so that was released right at the end of the same month. Then from that release I was looking at some of the guides from Sonic Retro about editing the game itself, so from that point onwards, Sonic-Into the Void became an ASM edit hack as well, plus new artwork was included. After 3 weeks, a massive update was released, known as (v2.4), which was released on YouTube and also Vizzed.com and contained masses of noticeable differences, and the HUD and Title Cards was changed from the original style to a more square-like font, and on Vizzed.com, this release is currently rated at 9/10. Almost 2 months later, a further update was released which contained some more level and object changes, and is also rated at 9.4/10 on Vizzed.com. We now move onto the currently released version (v3.0) which is another complete overhaul from the previous release, and the HUD and Title Cards took on a font based upon Sonic 3's style, but still it is my own creation.

    OK so you've learnt the history of my hack, now its time to actually play it!
    You can also see the NEW art what is included for the 4th and final major release on the hack's page, but because I'm so kind, I'll show a few screenshots with the zone names. [​IMG]

    (v1.0) Midnight Plains - (v2,4) Dark Plains - (v4.0) Midnight Aurora


    [​IMG]


    (v1.0) Magma Prison (v2.4) Magma Ruins (v4.0) Ember Gardens


    [​IMG]


    (v1.0) Spring Mountain (v2.4 +) Pinball Pike


    [​IMG]


    (v1.0 +) Hydroruin


    [​IMG]


    (v1.0) Neggalopolis (v4.0) Moonlight Road


    [​IMG]


    (v1.0) Egg Machine (v2.4) Death Gadget (v4.0) Delta Base

    [​IMG]



    Here's the link on Sonic Retro:
    http://info.sonicret...c-Into_the_void
     
  2. Hitaxas

    Hitaxas

    Retro 80's themed Twich streamer Member
    I would suggest you do a bit more work before revealing anymore information on this project of yours. The palettes need a lot of work, some clash in a way that makes my head hurt (Pinball Pike), and others are too saturated (Midnight Aurora and Delta Base).

    Having a bit of new art here and there is cool and all, but we are in a point with modifying these games that a new story and palette changes are simply not enough anymore.

    Make something that is completely yours, new level art, new music or music from other media that suits the zones well and new gimmicks, enemies and even new bosses.

    That's just my two cents on this.


    Edit: Oh, I see you already uploaded the game (stated in the first sentence)... Well, I still suggest you take it further.

    Edit 2: So I downloaded the game to give it a spin and the first zone's layout has way too many death pits, and spikes. As well as way too many obstacles that prevent me from reaching full speed for more than a second. Homing attack felt like it was almost useless, like it was thrown in there for the sake of having it. =/
     
  3. winterhell

    winterhell

    Member
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    Tried only the first level. It is hard to see anything when the foreground and the background are made out of 4 very saturated colors.
    Too many bottomless pits for the first act of the first zone.
     
  4. Yeah I can definitely see where you're coming from about some of the palettes, especially Pinball Pike act 3's palette (by the way each act has its own palette).
    For the future release I have ported new music across from another game, which I think suits each act.

    Now when it comes to actual level art, I can't completely change the art because it will clash with the story about Sonic travelling to his own time, but it's been distorted and so he arrives at something similar to a parallel universe. So if I change the level art, it just ignores the story completely, but I can see where you're coming from though.

    BUT! There are a couple of features that make my hack unique compared to the majority of the hacks, is I've slightly taken on the Sonic CD style of its act 3's where its like a run up to the boss, but it's a mini act. Plus, despite the bosses to be the same mechanics as the original, I have altered them to which I've never seen in other hacks, and made them harder, and again things like this have to be part of my hack or else it will just clash with my story.

    The special stages are also unique as each one takes on its own style and puzzle.

    But all in all I'm still grateful for feedback so thank you [​IMG], and since I'm not releasing the new update till May, I am still working on it.

    Edit: Hmm, I'll see what I can do about smoothing out the level for top speed action rather than bottomless pits! Also I only added the homing attack mainly because A) it's a nice feature B) Classic Sonic learns it during Sonic Generations. But I am still finding ways to make the homing attack more useful rather than just there for spamming.[​IMG]
     
  5. Okay, I do agree about too many bottomless pits, especially for right at the beginning of act 1. So I'll whip up something to ease up the 1st act.
    But for the palettes, with all of the versions of my hack (including future releases), I do have to bear in mind that the palettes have to relate with the zone name, e.g. Dark Plains (for v3.0) or Midnight Aurora (for v4.0), which are meant to have an eerie look to them, (v4.0's palettes have a more eerie feeing for zone 1), and because it's at midnight, it's supposed to be pitch black, but if I did that it would be impossible to play, never mind will it look completely wrong. [​IMG] So I have had to put in dark colours in replacement of pitch black to create an eerie atmosphere, while at the same time bring in bright colours because it's a Sonic game.[​IMG]

    But again all feedback is welcomed and most appreciated, despite it being criticism.... joking! [​IMG]
     
  6. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
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    Project Sonic 8x16
    I'll definitely give this a try later this week... but I gotta say, based on what I see above... and perhaps that is a tad unfair, this feels all too much like a palette hack (possibly layout hack)

    While there is nothing wrong with that, I'll echo previous sentiments and state that you're gonna want to bring more to the table if you want to attract eyeballs. A new ability, perhaps?

    I'll give you a suggestion you can implement if you want... it's from an idea I had in the Sonic 3 Complete thread recently... what if you had a section in Midnight Aurora Zone... where everything but the white colors turned to pitch black? If done right, this could be a nice new gimmick for your level... just be careful with this gimmick in that you don't make it painstakingly too difficult... there are ways to do it in which it can still be played through without too much difficulty.

    Also if I may... perhaps the Star Light level NOT be at night... considering you already have a night level... Just some thoughts.

    PS While it looks original, that paper thin HUD font is gonna be a real bitch to see at times... e.g. try finding the HUD in the Pinball Pike screenshot. Have fun with that! ;)
     
  7. Thank you for going to give it a spin! [​IMG]
    But no you'll be happy to know that it isn't just a basic palette and level layout hack, as there are a handful of moves which are taken on from Sonic Generations, such as Spin dash, Jump Dash and Homing attack, plus the obvious.
    ALSO, there are numerous sprites I have changed to a complete original design, and without leaking too much for the next version update, there are even more sprites that I have changed to my own design.
    Plus new music has been ported for the upcoming version, so yeah there's definitely more to come!!

    Also the suggestion you've made about turning all colours to pitch black except for the white colours (by white colours do you mean the lighter shades?), but that'll be perfect especially for act 2 which I am trying to make it spooky. However, I am only an extreme beginner at ASM editing, so if I can't implement it, it's only because of my current capabilities, despite me being a programmer. [​IMG] BUT! I'll have a look at it and see what I can do.

    Hmm, I might change the Star Light Level to a sunset palette or something, or even midday.

    For the HUD, despite the image was right in front of me, I didn't exactly notice the problem. [​IMG] I do want to keep the same font, but I'll either make it bolder or put a border of sorts around it.
     
  8. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

    OVER THE TOP TECHNO-BLAST Member
    1,618
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    Buffalo, NY, USA
    The Water
    Personally, I think this hack needs something more unique; maybe some kind of interesting gimmick or ability never seen before. Not only will this set it apart from the rest of the palette/layout/spindash hacks, but it'll also improve your programming skills greatly. You seem to have a sort of in-depth concept, so thinking of an idea shouldn't be an issue. I think KingOfHarts' idea would be worth learning how to implement.
     
  9. Clownacy

    Clownacy

    Tech Member
    873
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    Hooray, 4.0 is out! To celebrate, I'm going to pick this hack apart!

    After being screwed over by 3.0, I was hoping for 4.0 to be an improvement, let's see if the below gives that impression.


    So, you broke the Sega Sound, probably from porting the S3 driver using this insane thing. I should know, since I did that back when I was a copy-and-paste hacker.

    Your 'Press Start Button' does way too well a job of blending into the background.

    I started the game, attacked the first enemy I saw, got an extra life. I have no idea how you've broken that.

    What's with the wannabe Lightning Shield? It doesn't attract rings, it doesn't allow you to double jump. Wait, the wiki page on this still identifies it as a regular shield! You know, the classic shield sound effect can be used in the S3 driver, it's still in there, you just gotta find its ID and use it.

    Good golly, I recoiled at that signpost art. If art edits are supposed to be one of the major features of this hack, at least do it appropriately. I know that art is subjective, but come on, there are plenty of side profiles of Sonic to use or at least base an image on!

    So, Midnight Aurora act 2, there are Speed Shoes monitors at the beginning... why? That does not work well with this level design, I'll either fly into an enemy, spike pit or a bottomless pit, which you have way too many of. In fact, one is placed right next a spike pit, which you have to do some precision platforming above, speaking of which...

    This was a major dick move, and it's ridiculous to think anyone would see through this without trial-and-error: Midnight Aurora act 2, at coordinates 081F03AE, 078F0300, there are a series of floating platforms above a spike pit. I jump on them, they collapse, so I assume I just have to be quick and get across the platforms before they fall. I reach the third, jump, there is a swing platform that's only visible once I've reached the point of no return, I miss the platform, fall into the spike pit. Now I thought that I couldn't hate this hack any more at that point, but oh no, I try again, this time, trying not to jump past the moving platform, miss, fall, and I notice that the third platform hasn't fallen despite me having landed on it. I come to the horrible conclusion and facepalm, hard... You expect us to know that that one platform that looks identical to all of the other ones doesn't fall?! The fact that this is one of the first obstacles encountered in 3.0's version of this act leaves a very negative impression.

    Onto another mess-up, the Spin Dash has... changed. It's now the Educational Dash, remember those digits, kids! Why do I get the feeling that you used that one guide on that one less-than-reputable site that overwrites part of the Spin Dash's art in VRAM with the Centisecond timer? Oh, right, because I did that.

    To the right of the leap-of-faith/trial-and-error spike pit, there are two ring monitors and a Speed Shoes monitor, one of the ring monitors is horizontally mirrored. Also, see my above point of Speed Shoes placement; I grab the Shoes, hurtle to the right, over the spikes sitting next to them, only to find myself jumping into an endless bottomless pit. If I had the words... Oh, I do: STRAIGHT INTO THE VOID

    The Spin Dash sound effect also exists in the S3 driver.

    Oh, by the way, I'm still stuck in act 2 of the first Zone, the level where you're forced to backtrack if you don't make an unforeseeable jump. After that large U-curve, you're supposed to stop, drop to a lower 'hill' and perform a Spin Dash-Jump toward an adjacent two-platform hill sitting on the other side of Backtrack Canyon. Oh, and don't go for the lower platform, an invisible wall awaits you, that and an Eggman monitor. I continue on and see another drop in that path.

    [​IMG]

    Oh boy, I wonder what's down there! Monitors? An alternate path? No. A bottomless pit. Why trick us, have you ever played through the original GHZ!?

    Onto act 3, you used objects to limit your playfield. What, because you couldn't put the beginning of the stage there? Oh, right, you can't program, not even the most basic thing, such as changing the few, obvious lines that check how far to the right Sonic is, so it can spawn the boss.

    Oh but wait, I'm a dumbass, because, evidently, you can program! Just look at the boss, how he ascends during battle, which is great until he goes through the damn ceiling SECONDS INTO THE FIGHT and become unbeatable, oh, and a death barrier kills you when you try to pursue him. Why? WHY?

    "only Midnight Aurora's and Hydroruin's boss are altered for the ideal release" Good God, I'd hate to see the bosses that aren't ideal! (Oh, if only I knew...)

    TO LEVEL SELECT!

    ...and onto the next zone, Non-Lethal Lava Land. For a layout and object hack, you sure are careless with your objects and layouts: Backwards Caterkillers in narrow corridors so you can't just jump over them to destroy them, lack of lava markers making lava a joke, lava markers placed on harmless ground making me despise this zone, pistons too damn high for you to just push against until you can walk over them, instead needing to jump over them and kill your momentum, which will almost certain kill you also. You know the part, that section ripped right from Sonic 1, like the rest of the levels. That place also happens to have a few swinging platforms over lava, the third one crushing you into the ceiling, do you even care?

    By the way, act 2, coordinates 12EE048C, 125A042C. Deadly floor. Also, here 0AE400CC, 0A54006C, another dick-move: a gap requiring you roll or Spin Dash through, with a Caterkiller waiting on the other side. What's that? "Roll into his face"? That'd work if the Caterkiller's collision wasn't buggy. You know, if you're not going to fix it yourself, just use ReadySonic and make it easier for us poor sods that have to endure all this.

    To act 3. Getting bored of repeating myself, go to boss. And if anyone reading hasn't reached this boss, don't. Just quit and use the Level Select to skip this abomination. No, I'm not toning it down, this boss is fucking awful! Don't believe me? Look at this:

    [​IMG]

    If I wasn't so sure such levels of vulgarity would get me banned, I would have quoted my initial reaction to this trainwreck! Lava that doesn't hurt you, Eggman setting fire to the lava because you don't understand that the fire doesn't collide with objects, and more fireballs than stars in the sky! What the hell were you thinking when you made this!? It's bad enough that the best you can do to edit bosses is to add objects and mess with the layout, but you couldn't even do that right! I'm so glad this is getting replaced. If any good can come of this thing, it's that you can learn from it and make sure it never happens again.

    That's it. I haven't gotten any further than Pinball Pike's boss, which is also terrible, see for yourself, I guarantee you'll drop a brick in your pants first time as I did. I could comment on the SYZ knock-off, but, honestly, it's left no impression other than that I hate these palettes. Over-saturated, if not ridiculously contrasting, colours... Scarlet-red Spring Yard with neon green grating, with a red city lying beyond a dark blue forest. And don't get me started on the camouflaged Caterkiller in Ember Gardens act 1. Oh, hey, I just noticed, when you go quick, you leave after-images. Just how much of this code did you lift from Selbi? I thought his restrictions were to prevent this!

    You know, it's not just the hack that bothers me. You could say that this hack is a learning experience. As I said, I did some of the same stuff he did back in my early days. The difference being that I didn't tote the product around who-knows-where, bragging about how it was rated 9.4 stars on an irrelevant site, writing a goddamn wiki page on it describing it as a "complete overhaul" and containing advanced engine modifications. All while having most of page describe rubbish that everyone knows, seeming for the sake of having the page resembles Megamix's, even down to the wording! Because no one would recognise a ring without you telling us what it is. That belongs in an instruction manual, not a page on a wiki that simply focusses on documenting significant hacks, which I'm very uncertain that this qualifies as. I doubt this will even be talked about in two years, one of the justifications for having a page on a hack, as this hack is being killed off in the full version of 4.0.

    Removing all of the clutter/junk that belongs in this thread and not on a wiki page, it boils down to "Sonic - Into the Void is a palette/object/layout hack of Sonic the Hedgehog by Blueblur93, containing an expanded moveset for Sonic built from various other sources." There's nothing more to say, nothing notable, besides the pointless story that serves only as an excuse for your changes, or lack thereof.

    It's hard to criticise or praise this hack without resorting to "LEARN TO PROGRAM, DAMMIT". Heck, it's hard to write a conclusion without doing so either. What changes this hack contains fall flat for me: The palettes are unappealing, the bosses are foul and/or broken, I truly despise the layouts of most areas that aren't from Sonic 1, and even some of those have been corrupted to a state of unlikeability, the object placement is probably the best part, and even then the most mindless of mess ups are dotted around the place (see Non-Lethal Lava Land).

    "ALL WILL BE REVEALED"... The extent of my sanity, perhaps.
     
  10. Dear Clownacy,

    There are a couple of things I'd like to tell you about you're post.

    First off, OK I do like feedback, but I must admit you were very harsh and very rude with your words, and they were written as if you were really trying to annoy me... hmm WHY?
    So if you can kindly read the previous posts other people have made, maybe YOU can learn how to write YOUR posts in a fair but criticizing manner.

    Next, reading from the start of your "post", I do get the feeling that you decided to completely rip this hack apart, and do some nit picking at every opportunity you had, just for sake of it being a newish hack. That, I think sounds like you're just desperate to do or write something. Again, I did create this topic for feedback and criticism, but I do think you went too far.

    Now, for your information, I specifically chose that sound effect for the shield ON PURPOSE! Because the original sound effect didn't match my artwork for my shield. I designed the new shield solely because I think this hack needed to have an original looking shield, not the original style, or a style based on the original. This is MY design of the shield for MY hack. This shield is certainly NOT a wannabe lightning shield, if you have actually looked at the hack's game page, I don't think it mentions anything about this shield being a lightning shield.

    And lastly, if you can also kindly read in my previous posts within this topic, I'm sure you'll stumble upon something about me saying "I am only an extreme beginner at ASM editing", so if you can please back off and not being rude and harsh about it.

    I've only written this post in this manner because of the way you wrote yours to me, like the saying goes, " Treat people the way you want to be treated back." Remember that please!

    However, very few of the bits you've picked out, I might take into consideration, despite the way you wrote it.

    But by the way, you didn't have to play it you know. If you don't like something, you don't necessarily have to write about it.
     
  11. D.A. Garden

    D.A. Garden

    & Knuckles Member
    After reading what Clownacy has written, I felt inclined to play through and give you my own feedback.
    I only managed to play through Midnight Aurora Zone Act 1 and 2, until I got stuck. I used level select to access Act 3 and stopped playing afterwards.

    First, I'll list a few of the things I liked:

    • Your monitor design is unique. I don't know what it's supposed to look like when it's broken but I liked it as it's different. Could use some refinement, though.
    • I like the invincibility stars. It makes me feel as if I'm going to warp, Sonic CD style.
    • Same with the lamp post. I like the change although the palette and shading ruin the style a little.
    • The special stage; the first one that I got into. It was a little difficult for the first stage (I didn't get the emerald) but I like how it's structured. I had fun and spent quite a while in it.
    Now, here's some of the problems I faced or areas that need to be looked into:

    • Why do I get a 1-up whenever I restart the game and get any amount of points? It's a little odd.
    • The homing attack's inclusion is odd. I don't really understand why it's here as, apart from a strange area in Act 1 where there are multiple blank monitors to chain across, it's not really useful.
    • I can't for the life of me figure out how to progress in Midnight Aurora Zone Act 2. I keep going in a loop with no foreseeable path to advance.
    • There's a lot of badly placed chunks. Chunks usually connect together with other ones in certain ways but here, there are many that either float in the air, cut off from each other or flat out don't work in the way you've placed them. The S bend in particular doesn't work too well when you cut it in half like that. You should take cues from the original to see what works.
    • Same with objects: Many are placed in obscure places or used incorrectly. The use of object 44 (Green Hill Zone's solid wall object) is incorrect in a lot of places by either being placed manually (instead of snapping to 8 pixels) or using the wrong shading version (subtype 00 for left corners, 00 for left walls and 02 for right walls). Same as above; use the original for guidance.
    • The palettes for Midnight Aurora Zone Act 1 - 3 have broken shading in the palette, causing everything to look a little off. Most noticeable with the shading on the wall pattern.
    • While stuck in said loop, there are 2 speed-ups very close together with nowhere to actually utilise them. Seems a bit pointless.
    • I see what you were trying to do with Act 3 (I did the same in Westside Island) but you've moved Sonic too far to the right and the background now disappears.
    • The boss is weird. He's not hard, just annoying. I mean, the first time I went against him I died from an invisible object (I presume a lava tag) and the second time I just stood on a block underneath him (With the wrong art. Probably from another zone) for most of the hits before jumping up a bit and finishing him off with the invincibility I got earlier.
    I'm not being overly negative to put you down; I'd like you learn from this. Please, feel free to take the feedback presented and make something of it.
     
  12. D.A. Garden:

    Thank you.

    This is the feedback I like.

    With the "loop" in Midnight Aurora act 2, I was trying to do a unique style for the route, but it does sound like people, including you, are having problems with it.

    The broken monitors, I was trying make it look like the glass in the monitor has smashed.

    Now for the boss, as you've probably read, I've started looking at ASM editing, meaning that I barely know the absolute minimal of ASM editing. So from that I've had a look at the boss' movement, and I've tried to make it unique, in fact I was trying to base all the bosses, except for the final boss, off the Sonic Jump game style. But I tried sorting code out where once Eggman reaches a certain point in the Y axis, sonic dies, but it just didn't do it, so that what's been done in the hack, is the best I could come up with, hopefully temporarily. Also that block from another zone, I thought I'd use that to camouflage it, to make the player think that, "oh its the same old boss" and then you see eggman flying upwards as a little suprise.

    But for the star post and monitors, I will remaster them.

    Your feedback, I will take into consideration, but I personally think now, Sonic: Into the Void should have a long break, while I learn more about ASM hacking.

    Again, thank you for your feedback.
     
  13. Clownacy

    Clownacy

    Tech Member
    873
    128
    43
    Bite me. If you didn't want me to play it, you wouldn't have released it.

    And stop your whining, I'll have you know I wrote most of that post as I was playing your game. If your game puts me in that bad of a mood, try harder. What, did any of the authors of hacks that watch Let's Plays of their hacks start bawling when the players flipped at bad design choices? If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    Hilarious, so my points are invalid because there are too many of them? How the hell would you know my intent? How would know if I was really out to get you because your hack is new? Stop making things up to make yourself look good.

    You want the truth? I was criticising what I will call a bad hack, and I'll criticise as I wish. I'll criticise every bad factor I can, because, hey, it's feedback. I could have just flamed, endlessly talked about how your hack lacks ASM level hacking, but I didn't. The only time I even did bring up the lack of ASM knowledge in a negative tone, I rebutted it by pointing out that you have made original ASM modifications, and even praised it. I listed what made this stinker reek, so you can improve. It's called "constructive criticism", you'll find that "lol, you can't program, this hack sucks" doesn't count as such. Learn to make the distinction. I wouldn't have posted on this forum of all places if I wasn't sincere in that regard. I'm just trying to knock some sense into you. So what if it's rough around the edges? It's hard to take you seriously when you do things like what I've mentioned before.

    Excellent work misreading what I said. I already brought up how the wiki page didn't call it a Lightning Shield; I was pointing out the inconsistency. How it contradicts the presence of the Lighning Shield elements. If anything, it sounded like you used the sound effect because it was used in Generations, and since you like tying this hack in with that story, it made sense.

    Your condescension gets you nowhere. So two wrongs make a right, is that what you're saying? You present a case full of holes. I expected so much more when you opened your own rant with "Dear X,". Though posts like those never end well.

    Oh, that's nice. You're going to keep your hack in a sub-par state just to spite me? All of my points were valid. I'm not going to speak for others, you go ask 'em. Ask them if they like the leap of trial and error. Ask them if an unbeatable boss is a good idea. Oh, look. We already have someone echoing my points.

    I'll say it again. I don't care that you're new to ASM, I am plenty aware of it, had you been keeping an eye on the history of your wiki page... Anyhow, that doesn't account for every flaw. I focussed on everything else, bad layout and such. And when you break a boss through not knowing what you're doing, just roll the change back. The game is now broken. Was I ever harsh about you not knowing ASM? I even avoided the topic in the conclusion, bringing up only to explain the short size of it.

    To annoy you? Don't flatter yourself. Tell me, what does "why" mean to you? I was asking a serious question. Why did you make these choices? Was it even something you did, or is it some part of the engine bugging out? You're just dancing around the question.

    [endquoteresponce]

    Gee, you really think I'm out for your blood? I could have kept quiet, let this thing rot. Even you with your backwards idea of harshness took some of this on board.

    The hack infuriated me, and for your information, the initial draft saw heavy editing before being posted, because I didn't want it break into flaming and over-the-top vulgarity, I did care about the hostility, I didn't want the post to be that way for the sake of being hurtful, but I wanted it to be heated, I wanted to show just how much this hack angered me with its cheap deaths, bugs, so I let it show through the text. The game starts off with nitpicky problems, with messed up monitors, then it becomes infuriating, like the floor-is-lava situation, my post got more aggressive towards the end because I was writing that post as I was playing your hack, where in the end (Pinball Pike boss), I ragequitted.

    Hey, D.A. Garden, remember the section on Backtrack Canyon? That's your problem. You're going in a loop 'cause of it.

    Anyway, before we go another round of tearing at each other's throats, I certainly wasn't expecting that boss behaviour to be intentional. Hey, it sounds great, somewhat a combination of the GHZ and LZ bosses. A good effort, though to get it fully working, it's as much familiarity with ASM as it is familiarity with the Sonic engine.
     
  14. winterhell

    winterhell

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    Clownacy, you are the one who is being rude and whining. Just because the author, got forbid, self-rated their work higher than it actually is, does not mean you should tear their project apart. You could have either pointed out bugs similarly to D.A. Garden's post. Words like "useless", "stupid", "dick-move", and attacking the author directly are frowned upon. That is anything but constructive criticizm.
     
  15. Clownacy

    Clownacy

    Tech Member
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    Hey! I didn't use "useless" or "stupid". :U Besides, I'm not the first to use "dick-move". And the self-worth point isn't the only factor in my criticisms. In fact that topic was offhand. When I was ranting about the hack, it was because of the hack. I was pointing out bugs, it escalated with the severity, compare the early entries to the platform-over-spikes part.
     
  16. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
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    Do I really have to step in here? Everyone stop being dicks to each other.
     
  17. Thanks winterhell, I'm glad it's not just me thinking Clownacy is being rude.

    But this to you now, Clownacy. This is my 1st ever hack, OK? I don't know about you, but I've been playing other peoples hacks for a good few years now, and it got me interested, seen as I am a programmer for ObjC and C++, but mainly ObjC, depsite that assembly code and C language are nothing alike. So I decided to look into it, taking small steps, rather than throwing myself into the deep end. Then over time this hack was built. Yes, I have used code what people have posted, big whoop, but isn't that what all newbies do when learning a completely new language, however I have credited them, rather than claiming it as mine, which I can state it's not mine. Then over time, more artwork was added, thinking that it's building on nicely. Then when it comes to the latest release, of course because its my 1st hack, but I was really proud of it, as would any one else would be. I accomplished something I set out do, why wouldn't I be proud and ecstatic of my hack? Everyone's biased about their own game, I am, and I also know there are greater hacks out there like "Sonic Megamix" for instance, but because it's my own hack, that particular hack where I used my own time to create it thinking it was decent, of course I'm going to think it's better than everyone else's, it's called being human.

    By the way, the only reason I MAY have misunderstood what you put in your 1st post, is only because of the way you wrote it and the atmosphere of it. It just felt as if you had nothing better to do than writing bad things about it. I can't see one single positive thing you wrote about it, not even a very minor positive. I'm not just saying that because you found too many negative aspects and I'm whining as you called, I'm saying it because EVERY hack, even the worst hack ever, has at least one good aspect of the game, even if it's something that's done in another hack repeatedly over and over again, it's is a positive aspect, it's an accomplishment.

    Also lastly, I don't know why, but from the sound of your 2nd post, it actually sounds like you wanted this to happen, well CONGRATULATIONS! YOU MADE IT HAPPEN!
    GIVE YOURSELF A ROUND OF A-FRICKIN-PPLAUSE!

    Here's a hint for you, coming from a person who does reviews and criticism (check vizzed.com for my reviews, same username, and read 'em, I know they're not the best reviews out there, but its the manner of the reviews I want you to notice): When criticising people, you're supposed to make them feel that they want to do more to the hack, not completely strip them of their confidence to do more.

    EDIT: Sorry Overlord I didn't see you're post, otherwise wouldn't have posted this.
     
  18. Knucklez

    Knucklez

    I love 2B 'n' ass. Member
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    Well, that's some immature shit right there. The guy does his best to make a hack and you want to start nitpicking and criticizing as if he was Sonic Team or something.

    Trust me I have plenty of creative ideas for hacks and would love to make a hack more than anything, but I have ZERO knowledge of how to even hack.

    So don't criticize this guy when he's just trying to learn and do something you yourself haven't got a clue on how to do. Everyone has their own style and their own method of doing things. Unless he was a professional making amateur decisions or mistakes, you need to shut your mouth Clownacy.

    People on here need to respect the effort being put forth when obviously no one else on here has even bothered to release any hacks since the last contest.
     
  19. Thank you Knucklez, I truly do appreciate with what you wrote.
     
  20. Clownacy

    Clownacy

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    Oh, this 'rudeness' point again? Haven't you heard of satire? Thicker skin helps.

    In my second post, though, you genuinely got me mad. It was... what's the word? Well, you used the terrible argument of 'if you don't like it, don't play it', and that was your final word. That did less than a good job of setting the tone for the response. Your perception failed, too: You said you were speaking with the attitude I did, but you were just being snarky, making the most absurd of arguments.

    Eash, not to pick a hole in everything you say, but what kind of philosophy is that? If I had a hack and the only feature was new palettes, which were awful, how does it contain even a single positive thing? The best thing to a positive I can think of is time and/or effort. There can certainly exist hacks with no positives. I'm not saying this is one of them, more on that later in the post.

    "Being human"? I can certainly tell you in all the time I've been around, I have never considered my hack to be above all. What kind of god-awful mindset is that? That would discourage learning, progress. What's there to do when you're at the top? I think I missed your point though, you say that but bring up Megamix as a better hack. ?

    That section above that covers this applys here. Damn, that part was messy. After the first post, I was ready to call it quits with the angry-act, I wasn't playing the ROM anymore. And your response... As I'd repeated in previous posts, my original post had valid points even if watered down, but I spent my entire response correcting yours. We were both hardly in any state to cool off. You were mimicking me and your argument just annoyed me into responding angrily.

    I wasn't claiming it was stolen. About Selbi's code, I can understand bells and whistles that your average guide adds to your hack, but features that are relevant to the very identity of your hack, as a follow up to Generations, such as Sonic's Homing Attack, which he inherited during Generations, the fact that it wasn't something you made, and physically had to ask someone to give it to you, only for you to give no use besides the occasional monitor chains, comes off as that posterboy example of why such code isn't publicly available. As someone else said, it felt slapped on. Yeah, it's relevant to the story, but what else is it relevant to? What else is even relevant to the story? That after-effect certainly isn't!



    I don't know if bringing it up again will do any good. You don't need to tell me how reviews and criticisms work. I didn't do anything wrong; I had everything the way I wanted it. I'm aware of DA's checklist style, I'm aware that I could have taken an entirely different approach. I didn't want to. I tried a hack that was rated 9.4 stars somewhere by someone, had a wiki page describing it as a "complete overhaul" and as containing advanced engine modifications, you kept on giving the idea that the hack was good. But when I played it, it... didn't match what I'd heard of it: It gave me hell. I expect a layout hack to not make me ragequit as much as you expect feedback to be in a positive tone. You see? Then a new version comes out, I'm curious of its improvements, I play it only to find what I would consider to be worse. I'm repeating myself, as this is the same point I've been making all this time, so if you already get my point and have been disagreeing with it all this time then this won't do much good. I wasn't out to get this hack because it was new, it's because, from my experience, it was absolutely insane. It pushed my boundaries of poor design in certain areas, so my post pushed my boundaries of what I was comfortable with posting here (the first dick-move being what turned the post from 'things wrong with the hack' to 'things wrong with you as a level designer'). You suggest that I cut down on the rudeness, and since the rudeness runs parallel to bad features of the hack, I suggest you cut down on those. That was the entire point of the satire approach. If you can't see through the 'rudeness', then that means I couldn't see through the hack's flaws. That's why I couldn't bring myself to praise anything: I didn't notice anything over the dreadful time I was having. I began as jotting down thoughts that ran through my head as I was playing the hack, thoughts that every other player of the hack would have. It may have been cruel, but anyone who encountered the Ember Gardens boss will react the same way I did. It's why it's the only part of the post that I didn't tone down to satirical, leaving it at pure critical, aside from the lack of a certain quotation. Who wouldn't want to skip it? If the hack is enough to make me go through all of this trouble, imagine what it does to other players. Had I enjoyed the game, I would've come here, sometime after clearing Pinball Pike, and cheerily praised the hack for making something good from 3.0; instead of coming here having ragequitted, voicing my extreme dislike toward it. Even had I thought of this as 'just bad', I wouldn't have been so heated either. It's because this hack is nothing like I've ever experienced before. In areas, I really felt like you were trying to be bad. Like those platforms above the spikes, like the Speed Shoes that trick you into a cheap death, like that would-be hidden area that's a bottomless pit. This even had an effect in the conclusion: the level layouts outside of their times of being evil were honestly alright, it didn't flow much in areas where you'd expect it to, but places such as Ember Garden act 2 were pretty solid, iffy objects aside, but when came the Pinball Pike boss, it didn't matter, it wasn't enough to negate the hell I'd been through. I cast aside how I liked Midnight Aurora's palette and whatever levels it was that kept me going this far, they were pushed to the back of my mind, I didn't want to play anymore. I wanted these flaws to be out in the open, it may have been overkill, but considering what you'd done up to that point, I thought it was just enough. I'd seen way too many dim folks who that post wouldn't have gotten through to. There's my side of the story, how about yours? What was your intention with some of these? Do you plan to change any?

    Hey, Knucklez. What's this about stuff I can't do? Seems like a pointless blow. You haven't seen my levels, but I've seen his. In fact, I can identify the bad in this hack's levels.
    Anyone can do better than 'selectively dropping platforms' or 'unseeable ledge that's required you reach to progress', it's common sense to not do that. So of course I pointed it out as if he knew better, because he did. Come on, I don't think so little of him!
    Just because a hack's released during a drought doesn't immediately make it good, it should get by on it's merits, not the time of year. Anyway, I've already made my point. Good is good, but too much bad can drown it out.