Sonic Heroes Discussion

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by ultima espio, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. Jason

    Jason

    *Results not lab tested. Member
    Of the "Adventure Era" games, as Generations PR called them, Heroes is my favorite, with Adventure 1 a sliver behind. The aesthetics are great, and there's the least amount of bullshit to finish the game (only 1/4 of it is boring, non-Sonic-esque gameplay, instead of 2/3 for the two Adventures). Yes, the dialogue is the some of the worst in the series ("Hmph, because we're Sonic Heroes."), and the multi-hit enemies, especially the big knight ones, were very annoying. But, getting Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles to work together was and is still pretty fun. I pop Heroes in a couple of times a year and play through Team Sonic, and find the frustrations minimal. However, I'll probably never go back and straight up collect 28 emeralds again.
     
  2. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Two stageplays, a screenplay, and an album
    This is occasionally (rarely) used well in combat, but in level design it's usually too simple to be interesting. Switching to power formation because there's a wall in the way and a floor fan underneath you, for example, doesn't require any skill. It's a "put key in lock" puzzle except all locks take the same three keys, which you always have.

    What could've made this a lot more interesting is a combo system, for example requiring Tails to carry Knuckles high enough for Knuckles to latch onto a high wall and climb the rest of the way up. But virtually none of the level design in this game actually requires two characters for layout-related reasons. Instead, what we've got are arbitrary stopping points where the game pretty much says "press X/Y to continue".

    I do need to give credit where due though. I'd forgotten just how gorgeous this game is, but it really does stand up even against some of what's out today. Heck, it looked a lot better on GameCube than '06 does on 360.
     
  3. Espyo

    Espyo

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    A Pikmin fan engine - Pikifen (https://pikminfanon.com/Pikifen)
    Not sure about a post, but...
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDBb9OmQbV8
     
  4. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    Somehow I still love this game.
    Make no mistake, it's pure shit... IDK I guess the love I had for the 3 character concept prevented me from ever truly hating this game. Either that or I'm biased towards anything Sonic.
    Also... to the guy mentioning the "brawler mechanic"... I'd rather play as the Werehog if I wanted a real brawler mechanic...

    Time to give this another playthrough.
     
  5. MartiusR

    MartiusR

    Member
    Sonic Heroes was the first 3D platformer from Sonic's World which I've ended (not so far ago)... And it's quite surprising paradox for me. On the one hand - it's full of lacks. And it's not even about control (if you'll get accustomed to "moved to right" WASD (in this game - TFGH) + mouse, you can play without any problems even on keyboard). Not too "friendly" camera, quite annoying cases, when suddenly "not-too interactive" grinding suddenly drops you into moment, when you can easily fall, some embarassing dialogues & lines (I'm not writing about the plot, because it was never strong (or important) point of games with Sonic). But on the other hand - strong accent on "arcade-style" of gameplay (it's noticeably different from Sonic Adventure 1&2), not bad appearance of teams (Ok, two of them - Chaotix & Dark :P) and "something I can't describe" - all of these made this game surprisingly addictive for me. And even going through the same levels with all teams wasn't too tiresome for me. Maybe only in one case - Sonic Team and Dark Team had too similar way of playing through most levels. And what is more surprising, I've played in this game for the first time in this year (good it's working without problems on newer computers & system (at least in my case everything was fine), so theoretically it was "doomed to fail". But I've found out it was fun. I don't think that I'll have enough patience & skills to obtain all A ranks, but I'll probably try to collect all emblems.
     
  6. Dude

    Dude

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    Sonic Heroes is the game that boldly asks the question: "What the fuck is surface friction?"

    They threw out almost a decade of fine-tuning and polish when they threw out the adventure engine, and it shows. The characters just slide everywhere, the turning is clumsy and imprecise, and characters just don't respond to slopes the way they should. Although admittedly this could be the fact that each of the curves or slopes in the terrain consist of exactly 2 polygons. Gravity feels off too, with the homing attack that just never ends. It feels like an impotent, floating excursion through space. Not a quick, powerful attack.

    Honestly the best way to improve this game would be to take the stage meshes, put them in Sonic Adventure and then make new item layouts.
     
  7. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    I remember when I first heard about this game. I almost never used the internet as a kid, so the first time I found out this existed was from an advertisement for the game on the back of Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg's manual. I was so pumped for this game, especially with Espio Charmy and Vector being in it, as I knew them from the Archie comics.

    Loved the game at first, but yeah the actual controls and character handling were a huge step down from SA2. So slippery and haphazard. Though I love the little cutscenes before each zone, how the artstyle brought back a little bit of the classic elements (though the character models themselves were terrible) and of course the music. As fond of memories I have for the game, there's no doubt there was a huge downgrade in quality with Heroes. Which is a shame, because it has a ton of potential.
     
  8. Vertrex

    Vertrex

    Layin' the wax and spinnin' the sound Member
    I can't believe Sonic Heroes has been around for over ten years. o:
    I haven't played that game since forever ago. I need to play it again!
     
  9. Sonic Warrior TJ

    Sonic Warrior TJ

    O'Doyle rules! Member
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    I'm reminded of a post I made a good while back on G+ while playing through Heroes PC.
    Oh my fucking god, holding right and pressing jump is supposed to switch rails, not fling you over the other 3 and into oblivion. Fuck you, Sonic Heroes. You're fun, but pretty much every death is cheap and due to poor design/programming. Every level except for Mystic Mansion is "track over a bottomless pit, cause those are a thing, sure", and enemies fucking knock you back six feet when you get hit, so unless you've made an effort to stay away from the sides, you're pretty fucked.

    Fly formation sometimes has this bullshit bunny hop when you switch to it, that will fuck you up if you don't wait for them to get settled before you try to jump. Otherwise you'll fly instead, get none of the height you wanted, and fall into a fucking pit. Power formation can send you right off the side if you so much as punch while an enemy's moving around, because you slide goddamn ten feet, slide off the edge, and fall with no way of saving yourself.

    Speed formation. Ugh. If you're not holding forward after a light speed dash in the air, you're probably going to die, because momentum? What's that? Also while you're wailing on enemies, watch out for your teammates, who suddenly know the Homing Attack just for this, specifically. If one of them destroys an enemy as you're homing in on it, you're probably gonna fly off an die. Die die die. That's all Sonic Heroes is. Unless you repeatedly tap the joystick to move at a snail's pace, and never attack, there's no way to do any of it without dying.

    Everything is cheap. The fights against the other teams are cheap because there's no clear way to win other than spamming your speed characters whirlwind attack, as nothing else in your arsenal knocks the opponent far enough to throw them off the platform. The Egg Albatross fight is cheap, because the only character fast enough to keep up AND attack is your speed character, who needs to attack one specific spot on the boss over and over and over and over and over and over while it's flying around and you're wrestling with the Homing Attack, trying to keep it from sending you into an "unhittable" spot on the boss, thus bouncing you off and into a pit because guess what - this boss takes place over a thin strip of track, over a bottomless pit. The third phase of the boss won't let you get a good lock-on to its head unless you bribe it with coke and hookers, so you've gotta count on the team blast for this phase. Die die die, Sonic Heroes.

    When Sonic Heroes isn't killing you, it's pissing you off some other way. Let's take the casino stages for example, specifically BINGO Highway. The I HAVE NO UNDERSTANDING OF THE SONIC ENGINE(lol) in this game make absolutely no sense. I cannot wrap my mind around them, at all. Sometimes you can steer, most of the time you can't. Sometimes shit bounces you where you're supposed to go, most of the time it doesn't. BINGO Highway has a section of pinball shit towards the end where you have to avoid (wait for it) PITS. You're expected to steer around these things as if you have the ability to, and most of the time you don't. You'd have a better chance not doing anything.

    Grand Metropolis and Power Plant have blue paths that automatically push you forward. This wouldn't be too bad if it weren't for the scripted corkscrew loops that sometimes lead you to miss the spring or ramp at the path's end, sending you into, whaddya know, a bottomless pit in the middle of a power plant.

    Rail Canyon has a section where you're grinding on some rails towards a train station (the whole level is rails over a, you guessed it, bottomless pit) and there's some explosions, and if you're on the wrong rail, you're dead. There's nothing telling you where to go, until after you're already falling.

    Well with that out of the way, it's back to trying to finish Team Dark's story on Heroes PC. I don't know why Rail Canyon's giving me so much fucking trouble today. Even while it's riddled with flaws, Heroes is somehow still fun. Beats the hell outta me.

    tl,dr: I got really mad at Sonic Heroes one day and bitched about it on the Internet. Then I continued playing it because I still like it.
     
  10. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    You know what would make me more ok to play with this game? Can someone make a hack that drastically reduces the hit bars of the characters and makes all characters start on level 3 immediately? There are so many "WOW LET'S KILL EGGMAN'S ROBOTS" sections I just want to scream, and I can only take some much "Hu, SHA, hu, SHA, hu, SHA" from Knuckles because it's just so damn boring after a while.
     
  11. Mystic Mansion was a highly mind fuck stage, and it was supposed to be. Favourite level of the game....

    Also once your characters are leveled up, the enemies do die in one hit, except the ones with the shield, then they die with two hits. Even the gold turtle dies with two hits with a LVL 3 speed character. The only Character who should have gotten the quick acceleration and lack of surface friction is Shadow, ala Air Shoes, but overall, I liked the game, albeit its cheesy lines.
     
  12. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Well it's not only the gold turtles, but the E-1000s and the Giant Eggpawns with the hammers. To hell with all of them.
     
  13. MartiusR

    MartiusR

    Member
    Unfortunately, I must agree about the clumsy control. Especially in case of "speed" characters - while it's not so disturbing when you're playing with flying and (partially) "fighting" characters, this can be sometimes a real disaster, when you're in speed formation and losing control during some more "complex" maneuvers. And homing attack brought me many (too many) situations, when Shadow/Sonic/Amy/Espio fell into chasm. The speed formation is also achieving sometimes some irrational, sudden "boost" after landing, which is bringing you right into... Well, you know. Probably that's was the reason, why I've spent so much time in flying formation during the whole game - it's generally much safer way to go through levels you're not familiar.

    On the other hand - I totally forgot to mention one of the (probably one of the best, at least IMO) advantages of this title - muuusic. I've played so far in Sonic 1-3, a bit in Sonic CD, both Sonic Adventure, Sonic 4 Episode 1, Sonic Advance, Sonic Riders and Sonic Heroes, but the last one has, in my opinion, the best set of music. And while I liked some single tracks from mentioned titles, soundtrack of SH is for me also good as the "sum".

    Well, maybe except these two from "castle levels". But that's rather because I have allergy (and it's really big ALLERGY ;)) on everything connected (even a bit) with "halloween theme". Even with this single "setback" though - I appreciate the whole soundtrack of this game. Fun, lively and memorable.

    To conclude - probably it's one of the cases, when it's not the best game in whole franchise (I must admit it :( ), but it's one of my favourite.
     
  14. EmerlForgotten

    EmerlForgotten

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    I always thought Sonic Heroes was a decent game wrapped in a stupid "revisit levels, only slightly different" concept. But with what time I had with the game, it was actually pretty fun. I also honestly don't get the hate for the chatter during levels, I find it kind of amusing.
     
  15. Beltway

    Beltway

    The most grateful Sonic fan of all time this week Member
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    I hold a lot of nostalgia for Heroes-it was the first time / around Heroes' release I actually found out about Sonic's Adventure-era retooling, discovered the internet (and Sonic Central in terms of Sonic sites), and the first 3D Sonic game I played / owned. When put next to Adventure 2 Battle (the only other 3D Sonic game I had at the time), it was the 3D Sonic game I preferred and revisited the most. (And as an unintentional added bonus, it was the only game I ended up having two copies of).

    That said, in retrospect...yeah, it's not very good. I think it's the largest offender of the ongoing list of Sonic games that had good ideas but lousy execution. Using the three characters together was pretty neat, but seeing the concept wasted on defeating enemies with life bars and blatant context-specific level design wasn't neat at all. Largely linear level design, slippery controls, and a barely non-existent story that largely wasted all of the characters it brought back (especially Metal Sonic) only add as additional marks against it.

    At the very least, the soundtrack and graphics/artstyle were really nice. The music for Frog Forest in particular holds a special place in my memories.
     
  16. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    Discovering the internet around the time of SH's release? God damn I'm old. I remember downloading some of the beta music before the game's release during the end of 2003. It was a refreshing approach from SA2 with a completely different set of frustrations. It was an "Ok" attempt at providing some Genesis era nostalgia, but with Egg Pawns and Robot Storms.....
     
  17. Ayu Tsukimiya

    Ayu Tsukimiya

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    I remember having the time of my life with the Mystic Mansion level and Egg Fleet. If it had some actual momentum, it would have been much better.
     
  18. MartiusR

    MartiusR

    Member
    I was also very sceptical, when I've found out that all four scenarios were basing on the same set of levels. However... In practice it went quite good (or at least "not bad"). I remember, that I felt tired only in case of Dark Team's scenario, since it was almost identical as these for Sonic's Team. Amy & friends have really relaxing and easy variation (I've recently ended two or maybe even three levels for them once more - just for fun). Chaotix Team has the most unusaul set of scenarios, with all these special conditions - maybe some of them could be the really pain in the neck, but still it had the most variety. What is most surprising - playing in Sonic's Team campaign was probably the hardest thing for me. Playing with Shadow, Rouge & Omega E-123 was noticeable easier. Even when I've tried to try once more with some Sonic Team's levels - it was still not too comfortable. It was the only campaign, which I've ended only with... I don't remember excactly, 3 or 4 lives.

    It wasn't anything special, but still it didn't bothered me too. Always some variety.


    You know Yeow, after playing in Sonic Adventure DX, I had an impression, that I'd rather prefer this model (symbolic amount of story, rather as some excuse/pretext to move on) than the model served in SA 1. Especially with strongly "arcade-oriented" model of gameplay. Plot & narration in SA 1 were rather a bit embarassing experience (for me). It went for sure much better in SA 2 - there was still rather simple and naive story, but at least I felt, that it was... Complete? With some sense? Don't know how to explain this excactly. For sure there was better narration and "introduction" of the intrigue. Aand in this comparition - I didn't bother about story in Sonic Heroes, because it didn't even pretend to be anything important. Of course I'm aware that maybe it's only my interpretation. And if only they could spare us some really embarassing lines (
    "because we're Sonic Heroes"
    )... On the other hand - "contribution" of Rouge was far less embarassing than in Sonic Adventure 2, even with symbolic "amount of plot".

    p.s. By the way - I know that there are some little differences between abilities of the teams. Sonic and Shadow have this special move, allowing to collect all rings which are situated in "one line". Espio has the invisibility. Are there any other differences?
     
  19. Gestalt

    Gestalt

    Sphinx in Chains Member
    When I saw early footage of the game I was so bummed about it. The more colourful and upbeat touch of its presentation and overall style appealed to me in a very positive way, although I expected it to be a more story-driven title like SA1 or SA2 was. I believe that the cutscenes were nicely done but still, they could have added a lot more to the characters themselves and the way they interact with each other than just quarreling before a fight. Now that I think about it they could have developed the personalities of returning characters (say Team Chaotix for example) or the newer ones (probably Cream?) in Sonic Heroes in a similar way they did in previous games with Knuckles or Shadow. Maybe that was some kind of an missed opportunity, maybe I simply don't like the shortness of all the cutscenes and how they felt all samey to me. :v: I believe that the bright world which the game takes place in could have added much more to the storytelling than just a fresh touch back at this time, especially in terms of epicness and character development.

    Anyway, I had a fun time with Sonic Heroes. Despite its flaws when it comes down to the gameplay I think that the length of each single-player section was just right so one is able to pick up the game and blast through Team Sonics story in one quick sitting. Also gotta love the soundtrack of this game. Even when it's just because of its awesome final battle music.

    Also hi everybody, that's my first post! :)
     
  20. JaredAFX

    JaredAFX

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    I remember Heroes as one of the first games I preordered... or maybe I preordered Pokemon Emerald when I got Heroes (I don't really remember; I was six years old in 2004). Either way, I remember having a lot of fun with Heroes... until I got later into the game.

    Now, obviously, as a six-year-old, the game wasn't going to be a breeze (especially considering I hadn't mastered anything I had played at that point, from SA2 to that PS2 Rocket Power game to Melee), but the rise in difficulty and poor programming from Seaside Hill, Ocean Palace, Grand Metropolis and Power Plant to the rest of the game is staggering. That alligator sequence? Impossible when I was younger. As I got older I was able to beat Team Sonic and Team Rose and get one Chaos Emerald, but to this day that's all I've done. The paradoxical thing is that I find the game fun. The characters slide around like the entire world is made of the greasiest butter imaginable (and somehow manage to dead stop in their tracks and tease you with an about-to-fall animation before they fall into the bottomless pit), but the game at its core, when it's working properly, is fun. The graphics still are pretty nice to look at, the music's great, and the cutscenes and the banter between characters in entertaining, but the gameplay itself is riddled with so many things that are just aggravating. Still, the first several stages are fun to play through every now and again and the two player mode isn't bad, but it certainly isn't as fun as SA2. In fact, I'm totally biased, but I would hands-down prefer to play SA2 over Heroes.

    ...That came out a lot more negative than I meant it to. Basically, I like Heroes, but I'd prefer to play an Adventure game to it.