Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by Dario FF, Mar 20, 2013.
Thanks. This is a great mod I love it. It's running great on my machine no real slow downs as far as I can see. I have a dated graphics card and an Athlon II X2 so I was surprised. Maybe it's because I ran the low end mod. But I got the impression that even with the low end mod the requirements were high.
I was wondering if you had any plans to port the Wii daytime stages. I don't know if that would be more work since they don't run on the Hedgehog Engine. But it would be neat to have both versions in one place.
Either way though this is a great mod. I can't thank you guys enough for it.
I have never once seen a score of 60,000.
Imma let you finish
But Dario has made the best rank system scale of ALL TIME.
ok seriously though, I've often respected you Blaze, and thought your views were actually the more insightful ones around here, but right now you don't seem to be acting like you. You not getting an S rank on Savannah Citadel for outputting your best performance in a while makes you think the grading curve should be more lenient? Any reason as to why?
Your basically saying "since my skills aren't that great I deserve a good grade no matter what." But that kind of logic is just nonsensical. If you take the SAT, do you expect to get a 2100 (or whatever a perfect score is now} because you tried your best? No, you get what you get because you take out what you put in. If you got the absolute BEST score on that stage possible, at least by our standards, you're rewarded with a top-teir rank. S rank means you're of the elites. It means you worked your ass of to get that score. It doesn't mean you got it just through simply playing the stage. You never get to see the S until you become a man.
Now, yes, you've been spoiled by Unleashed (kinda} and Generations (especially} handing out glittering S ranks on equally glittery silver platters, but you have to understand that the idea of the top rank in the first place is the best rank one can get. The S rank fits that category, and I see no reason for it not being the reward for those who've mastered their skills. Are you sure you're not just upset you didn't get an S rank on your first go?
Or my second, or my third, or my fourth, or my fifth, or my sixth...
You think that video of mine was just me turning the game on for the first time and getting a run like that? No, that was me getting A rank after A rank and then saying "Well I've played the stage about as well as I can be expected, might as well give up for now"
Yes, since then, others have given me tips on things I could be doing to be faster. But at this point, I don't care. The tips I have been given are all non-obvious things that only people who are "serious" about speed running would think about. My original implication of "Of course, Paraxade would say that" was that he holds the world record in some of these games. If anyone would know how, it would be him.
This is a very, very touchy subject, with a lot of machismo "guess you're just not good enough huh "
Which is exactly what I've really grown to hate about the subject. Proper difficulty balancing is one of the hardest things to "get right" on just about any game, and it's something I've really, really been trying to figure out for a long time. There is a difference between games that are difficult as a method of encouraging you to get better at the game (Bayonetta) and games that are hard for the sake of being hard (I Wanna Be The Guy). Understanding what it is about the former is very important.
It all comes down to what sort of feedback you're providing the player and how frustrated they are getting. The underlying point above about me not caring about the tips I'm being given is that the mod was giving me no feedback that I was doing anything wrong or that there even was a "faster route" to take. As far as I was aware, I was playing the level perfectly. And it is not rewarding me for that. That's poor feedback. Which leads to frustration. Which leads to me not wanting to play the game anymore.
It's just a letter man, nobody's been implying that. I honestly believe you'll get to appreciate it a lot more if you give it a second try some other day.
Like I said before, you're dealing with the bias of the previous game AND the generations ranking system. This system is not accounting for the stuff you'd seem to like that would give you S Ranks in Unleashed, it's giving you for purely time alone and ring bonus. If you're not up for the goal of improving time alone for the sake of sacrificing style, then I'm afraid it's just not gonna work out. And I'd rather not take out the option for people to enjoy this(as I've just seen in many playthroughs). We could be selectively quoting all day, of course differing opinions are gonna be around.
I just think you guys need to give it a week or two before calling off on it (seriously, some people still don't even know about the first shortcut in EC). Give it a chance and you might find you enjoy it. If not, then you just patch it out! It's a mod after all, the files are there.
No I don't.
What I get is that you seem to think you NEED the S rank. You don't NEED the S rank. This is not IWBTG where you are forced to walk through a forest where standing stll for a microsecond in the wrong spot will kill you. Yes, you're exaggerating, but your point is this is an unfair ranking system.
Like I said, the S rank is the top tier rank. If you can't get it, YOU CAN'T GET IT. Maybe you can, if you keep practicing! But no need to dismiss this level as too hard or "only speedrunners would be able to S rank this," because S ranking... What's the benefit of getting an S rank? You get a fucking S rank. That's it. Nothing else. In games with difficulty like IWBTG, you finish the stage if you go through hell. In this game, you're considered badass and given a ranking for being such if you go through hell.
You remind me of one of those kids in school who would always be dissatisfied with getting a 90 on his test and see other people get 99 / 100, thinking "only a genius can finish these tests." While everyone has their own skill level, when it comes down to it, if you work your ass off you get the best score. If you don't, oh well, what you input is what gets output.
There are no achievements in this mod, so you won't die if you don't get all S ranks. If you don't get it, MOVE ON. I didn't get S ranks in the original Unleashed because I was stupid. Did I care? Fuck no. It was a grade on my performance. As long as I had fun in the stage, I was fine. If I really wanted to get an S rank, I'd look for all possible ways to optimize my time, like, oh I don't know, a speed runner. You know, like if I wanted to pass a test, I'd study so I retain information a genius would.
Don't cry if you can't reach a score Dario could when he was half asleep :S
This stopped being about just me a long time ago. If you really think I'm fighting just so I personally can have it, you've missed the point of everything I've been saying.
Which officially means I'm out of here.
Including Jungle Joyride? That one's the killer.
cheer up bro
edit: Welp, already ruined by M-speed glitching
I'd have to agree with Blaze, but at the same Dario. Sure they are hard, and honestly, 10 seconds less on the stages for S ranks would be nice, but it is do able. You can always change it yourself anyways.
Windmill Isle - S Rank at maximum 2:05.
Savanna Citadel - S Rank at maximum 1:50
Both of these stages I was 10 seconds off. I personally think there should a balance. Something that would give the newbies something to work for without it being TOO hard, yet it's not too easy for the "lo proz only" people.
Unless you're flat broke.
And that's perfectly fine. The average person can still see and experience everything in the game but their rank will reflect their performance and encourage them to get better. In the real world, D is below average, C is average, B is above average, and an A is excellent grade. Getting an A on a test is supposed to be very difficult, require lots of studying, and show you know the material well. But if you think my real world example is too cruel, then think of the ranking system like achievements. They're not designed for the average gamer in mind, they're designed for the "try-hards" who want to get as much as out of their games as possible and are rewarded with nothing but a medal of sorts that shows how much they mastered a game. There are some games I've beaten that gave me barely any trophies for my accomplishments. I beat the PSN version of Bionic Commando Rearmed and that game only gave me one trophy. Does it bother me that I'm rewarded with so little and do I feel like I earned more than that? No, absolutely not. I think modern gaming has become way too easy and many achievements in games are handed out so frequently it's ridiculous. Not to mention the need to work harder to earn great ranks makes ranking systems a lot more satisfying. I don't own the HD version of Sonic Unleashed and have only played a few daytime levels from that version, but I was able to get a C rank or higher in most of the levels with my first attempt. Once I beat these stages multiple times, I'll get much better ranks pretty easily. The fact I got an A rank in my second attempt with both Windmill Isle acts and haven't gotten an S rank yet in act 2 gives me incentive to play that level more until I master it. Granted, the ranking system is very flawed and I thought both Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Colors had far more interesting ranking systems, but it works well enough to be a worthy feature of the game. Same cannot be said of the vanilla ranking system in Sonic Generations which was an absolute joke. Though I'll admit the ranking system worked a lot better for the missions.
I think it all comes down to a philosophical statement on the game design. Disregarding Generations ranking system (which was a total joke), A-ranks and S-ranks in previous Sonic games were not reserved for 1%ers, because Sonic traditionally hasn't been a game designed for those people. The top rank is more for the top 10-15%ers, and that's what people are used to. You put out this mod and suddenly a lot of people who could S-rank everything in Unleashed can't do so in Generations despite playing the level almost exactly the same way, because the bar has been raised considerably. And when people like Blaze or myself who could S-rank stages in the original game can't get past an A-rank without completely changing play-style, it's a big turn off. It's frustrating, because we're doing what we would consider - and what the original game would've considered - a great run, but it's not good enough for this mod and it may never be good enough unless we want to go full speedrunner, which is a kind of playstyle I don't even consider fun, personally.
But like I said, it's all opinion. I feel like the current ranking system is an over-correction on the easy system of the original Generations. I don't personally feel like a Sonic game should be designed around having to optimize time so thoroughly, and I suspect given the kind of people who playtested this mod before release, the designers may be a bit out of touch with how most people play this game. But if they want to design the rank system to reward only the top players, that's their prerogative.
Congrats, EuroGamer also did an article on the mod to! http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-03-21-modders-release-high-res-sonic-unleashed-pc-conversion
This is precisely the crux of the issue. The way speedrunners often play games is just not all that fun for most people.
I'll just throw in my 2 cents by saying this: I don't give 2 shits whether I S-Rank a stage in this mod or not. If I don't, fine. If I do, hell yeah.
But moving on, this mod is amazing, and totally worth the wait. I love how it's getting all sorts of gaming journalism attention as well.
Which is a result of the simplified ranking system I'm afraid. If we weren't dealing with the pre-conceived bias that S Ranking is something you NEED to have just based on the previous games, there's literally no reason for you to require an S rank other than a letter. I don't think ASRT is less of an incredibly well-designed game because the Time attack top scores are ridiculously perfected, which is why the thing is not mandatory for anything. I do want to start a better discussion on this, not specific to the mod itself, because I believe it's an idea that could work with some other official features from Sega (not useless ghosts would be an start in helping players finding the good routes), and without the previous bias. (For example, splitting both styles of playstyles into separate modes would keep both players happy for one... which is what could happen in Generations if the online ranking mode didn't crash constantly)
Like I said before, I'm no speedrunner. But I believe a player finding out how to skip on parts of the level design to keep momentum (and most are clearly intended by Sega, evidenced by the rail starting right above the 4-way cannon in Savannah Citadel. What reason is there for the thing to start there if they wanted to slow you down with the cannon?) on his own is a feeling that I believe it's worth striving for.
If I get my recording set up properly, I'd love to do S Ranking guides. No glitch abuse is required at all. You don't need to be no Paraxade for it. (As evidenced by how Paraxade's actual record on WI without skills is 15 seconds faster than the S rank time)
Ohohoho, I love it. This is amazing. And the World Adventure remix in the hub is truly a thing of beauty. Great job, Dario and team.
Once more bugs are reported, the next bugfix update will probably have an special separate mod designed for the regular renderer so the levels don't look that glitchy if you're unable to use the FxPipeline one. The hard thing about developing such a mod is that we couldn't be sure of when to lock down the files, and I honestly didn't think people would have that many issues with it. For that I apologize, and we'll get a version that looks fine with it. But I'm not sacrificing the eye candy on the ones using the FxPipeline for the sake of consistency between both.
Because I'm a master of shameless plugging and I don't have an audience outside of retro hence the need for me to post this here, I discovered a bug and put it in this video.
edit: omfg I didn't get an s-rank I'm uninstalling this mod right now because I'm demotivated to play
Congratulations on the release, the mod turned out to be as great as I expected!
I didn't have any issues while playing with modern Sonic, but with classic Sonic I experienced an "infinite loading screen" after quitting a level. Looks like I'll have some debugging to do.
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