Sonic Generations - Unleashed Project v1.0 Available

Chris Highwind · Apr 1, 2013

BlazeHedgehog said:

Dario FF said:

I'd rather people stop bringing "game design" discussion into something that is clearly an optional goal. I'm pretty convinced the whole issue is not with the mod (although I will admit the lack of feedback is the biggest problem with getting this system to work) but with the previous bias of how Sonic games have handled ranking up until now, and I'd like to keep that discussion for another thread.
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Well, that's a real big shame. I would've thought you would be more in favor of preserving Sonic Unleashed the way it originally was. Guess I was wrong about you.
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What part of "Generations Ranking System =/= Unleashed Ranking System" do you not get?! Honestly, I expected you to have a little more sense than this.

in b4 this thread gets locked for circlejerk

Dario FF · Apr 1, 2013

It's not that he doesn't get it. His point is a 2500 reduction in the score would achieve this (which is what a casual S Rank run in Unleashed would achieve time-wise). I argue that it won't because it does kill a lot of the optimization that I wanted you guys to do, and just fail at achieving that like Generations does. (Avoid trying to kill everything, learn how to use Sonic's moveset to do stuff more efficiently like air-boosting, etc.) There's a lot of depth to this gameplay that people just ignored in Generations because the game gives you nothing to look forward to achieving.

It falls down to the player not figuring out this stuff and getting frustrated. So how is that solved? Splitting this whole business into a time-attack mode with ghost recording, a la Mirror's Edge IMO.

The problem is this whole stuff isn't even general opinion though, so it's hard to see where the legitimate frustration comes from (some say because of how Unleashed handled it, others because they think a speedrunner put those times in, etc.). Would teaching players via some more level design solve this? (Rings that hint at paths, some of the red rings placed at optimal routes) Optional ghosts like ASRT? There's a lot of discussion to be had about it. But I don't believe it's for this mod in particular, it's something even Sega seems to have trouble figuring out as evidenced by Generations. They've been changing it for more than 10 years...

BlazeHedgehog · Apr 1, 2013

TimmiT said:

BlazeHedgehog said:

Dario FF said:

I'd rather people stop bringing "game design" discussion into something that is clearly an optional goal. I'm pretty convinced the whole issue is not with the mod (although I will admit the lack of feedback is the biggest problem with getting this system to work) but with the previous bias of how Sonic games have handled ranking up until now, and I'd like to keep that discussion for another thread.
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Well, that's a real big shame. I would've thought you would be more in favor of preserving Sonic Unleashed the way it originally was. Guess I was wrong about you.
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The ranking systems in Unleashed and Generations are pretty different. Sonic Generations only takes the amount of rings and your time into the final score. Unleashed also counts the enemies you defeated, the rainbow rings you went through etc. I don't think it's actually possible to port over the way the ranking system worked in Unleashed.
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But... you don't have to? Like you don't need all of the scoring elements to just... make scores that replicate the same level of challenge in the original game. You know... like they did with every other element of Sonic Unleashed that doesn't exist in Sonic Generations.

Jason · Apr 1, 2013

OK, I give up. Where is the third Red Ring for Jungle Joyride? I have + - the one on the straight wooden dock near the beginning, the one at the island in the fork of the two water paths, the one in the temple shrine behind the light ring dash in the waterfall section, and the one hidden in the cave in the vertical section near the end . So I'm guessing it's the third.

Dario FF · Apr 1, 2013

Jason said:

OK, I give up. Where is the third Red Ring for Jungle Joyride? I have + - the one on the straight wooden dock near the beginning, the one at the island in the fork of the two water paths, the one in the temple shrine behind the light ring dash in the waterfall section, and the one hidden in the cave in the vertical section near the end . So I'm guessing it's the third.
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+ - Hidded in thorn-spring section

Yarharhar · Apr 1, 2013

Played the mod recently, and it is fantastic! I have much more respect/fond memories of unleashed now that I am not forced to subject myself to the werehog stages. No complaints!

Is porting the big chaser over not feasible? I love the gun-truck and it works great as a replacement. It does have the same kind of attack patterns though (3 'lane' attacks and a 'all' attack), so it seems like it could be a mesh/animation replacement for the gun truck. Was re-meshing/animating it considered too much work/not enough payoff or not possible? (As a bonus, Sonic colors uses the same kind of chaser enemy, but re-skinned so future mods get that for free)

And finally, on the whole score-ranking thing: What's the big deal? It's a mod. If you don't like the score-rankings, make a mod-for-the-mod that makes the ranking more to your liking. "Generations-Style Ranking" or some such.

Guess Who · Apr 1, 2013

Okay, that's it. This has wrecked the thread enough at this point.

Look, I get it. This mod ranks on time more harshly than previous games, or the original Unleashed. Some of the ranks can be pretty difficult for the average player to achieve. This is not the same as totally balancing the game around an absurdly high level of play; the average player can still beat the game, they just can't necessarily get the highest possible (totally optional!) rank. In an ideal world, the rankings in this mod would match Unleashed's - but that's not possible. Unleashed and Generations use completely different ranking systems, and the system in Generations is designed pretty much entirely around time. This is not Dario's fault, or the mod's fault, it's totally on Sega. But it makes sense, given that the system in Generations is based almost purely around time, that the S-ranks would then be designed around optimizing time.

Dario's not a fucking idiot. He's done all these S-ranks runs himself, without skills, and even added a 5-second window to his own times. They are achievable. Maybe they're a bit difficult (because I suspect Dario's a bit better than the average player), but that's a design decision, and not one that's objectively bad. Like I said, ranks are totally optional to beating the game, and making the highest ranks achievable only by a top tier of players is a valid option. No one bitches if they can't get an SSS rank in DMC3. Dario makes a good point when he says a lot of this is likely influenced by people's experience with previous Sonic games, which have not traditionally been as harsh on S-ranks. And that's fine too! That's Sega's decision to make, as this mod's system is Dario's, and neither is necessarily wrong. I personally think it could stand to be a bit more lenient, but I understand if it isn't.

Now, for gods' sake, if I see another god damn post about this shit I'm suspending whoever posts it for a week.

Iggy for Short · Apr 1, 2013

Dario FF said:

AerosolSP said:

At the very least, requiring skills (ie, game-sanctioned cheats) to S rank (ie, display mastery of) a stage kinda defeats the purpose, don't it? If only there was a way to force A ranks for runs using skills that would otherwise yield S ranks...
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It doesn't require skills. At all. The S rank times are like 3-6 seconds above my no-skill runs, and I don't know any of the "speedrunner" techniques people keep talking about.

EDIT: New Project announced!

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The hilarious part is that now that you've shown this is possible, everybody is going to be begging modders to turn this into a project.

Guess Who · Apr 2, 2013

Not kidding about the suspension thing.

Aerosol · Apr 2, 2013

So no tangential discussions are allowed either. Gotcha.

So what's next then? Just bug fixes and the like?

Jason · Apr 3, 2013

AerosolSP said:

So no tangential discussions are allowed either. Gotcha.

So what's next then? Just bug fixes and the like?
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Find a Wentos a send it to [email protected]. That'll give you a clue as to what's next.

+ - It's Doppleganger races.

Aerosol · Apr 3, 2013

Appreciate the spoiler. I can't run Generations so I wouldn't have been able to figure that out.

qwertysonic · Apr 8, 2013

OmochaoAbuser said:

I am also VERY impressed! Jungle Joyride runs fairly well for me, though it was hell doing it with Classic Sonic.

I seem to have some problems with the mod itself, though. Firstly, I'm not getting any music. Also, the act select screen appears glitched.

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I get this same problem, but I also get glitches to the point that I can't see anything in the level. I get just a tiny graphical glitch in Savannah Citade, but the other levels are fine. Has this happened to anyone else or do I just have the wrong config settings?

Glaber · Apr 8, 2013

I find that if you spindash before the crusher. you have a chance to get through after being smashed.

Iggy for Short · Apr 14, 2013

So I'm pretty sure this wasn't brought up before... Why is it that Sonic keeps facing completely downwards when he first comes out of Rainbow Rings? (I don't remember how many it happens on, but I'm pretty sure it's quite a few.)

Azu · Apr 15, 2013

REALLY!?!?

Tyty · Apr 15, 2013

Azu said:

REALLY!?!?
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YEP!

TimmiT · Apr 15, 2013

Tyty said:

Azu said:

REALLY!?!?
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YEP!
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+ - I used skills

Tyty · Apr 15, 2013

I'm more concerned about the gigantic time discrepancy on both of ours. If you only get points for 100 rings and the rest is based off time, how did we both get A ranks so close to S ranks?

Iggy for Short · Apr 15, 2013

I can only gather 2 things from the screenshots, given the "To Next Rank" times, scores, total level times, etc.:

Every second seems to remove about 100 points from the score

The Blaze screenshot has a green Y-Button

...and only one of those things is remotely relevant. If I had to hazard a (rather obvious) guess, I'd say that the Blaze mod is interfering with the base time requirement. I'm not really sure how or why a character mod would affect the stage that way, but everything in those screenshots besides Blaze's specific total time seems to be consistent in regards to the scoring.

Sonic Generations - Unleashed Project v1.0 Available

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