Sonic Generations Hacking (and More!)

That being said, 3d is just like 2d in the sense that it becomes easier when you re-use materials. There are only so many lamp posts and ferns you can make. A quick look at any of SEGA's levels shows that they did alot of copy/paste. But since they're professional artists they make it look nice, as well as add their own touches to each copy to make it look different.

 

To be honest it's not hard to model, just a lot of people make it seem harder than it really is. The one thing I can't understand is why all these people take time to learn Max, Maya, or Blender just so in the end they use what they've learned to convert to a few file formats. I mean, they have the program right there; once you have the interface down it isn't that hard to learn how modelling works. I'm kind of glad there might not be any ripping on PS4, Xbox One, and WiiU. Hopefully then people will focus more on their own stages; whether it be a 3D redux of some classic stages or a completely original idea.

 

Modelling is among the skills with uncapped potential that fall in the '10,000 hours to grand master that still has much to learn' category.
In the first tens of hours its very discouraging knowing the gap between how well you can draw/play an instrument and one of the milestones you want to reach.
When you are not good at something(yet!) you tend not to enjoy it, and subsequently you don't dwell in that activity.

Even though there are only 12 or so tools used for poly modelling, there are not many people who can do an adequate Sonic model in their first 100 hours. Let alone original content.

 

^The way I see it, you really only need a number of months using one of these programs to really be productive on it. I noticed a lot of people had progress learning a 3D modelling program and just quit because they thought the interface was overwhelming. I remember when I first used Maya it looked like some kind of high tech wizardry, but now it feels more like MS paint to me. It's really fun once you get used to it and modelling has now been my favorite part of making a mod. What's also great is that if you learn one of the programs, you've basically learned them all. Learning it at first maybe slow, but in the end it's definitely worth it.

 

I don't think you have the appropriate context for what you're saying. Because I've been there. I'll draw something and post it online, and get somebody who asks, "How did you do that?!" Well... it was easy, right? See, all you have to do is draw a circle like this and add details and erase here and

Except you don't realize that to get to the point where that stuff is easy, you've been doing that every day of your life for like, ten years. Some people struggle just drawing the most simplistic thing in the world, like a circle. They don't even know what the word "foreshortening" even is. And they may not, ever. Some people are more artistically inclined than others. Some figure this stuff out in a weeks, some people months, and some people just never will, no matter how hard they struggle and try.

I've had brushes with 3D modeling programs before. I taught myself how to do (some) UV mapping, rigging and animation once, years ago. I really, really want to learn mapping. I have ideas for like, Left 4 Dead campaigns and whatnot that are never going to get made, because I open up Blender or Hammer or whatever and it's all just gobbledygook. Rows of icons that don't mean anything, ten thousand keyboard shortcuts, and the knowledge that eventually you're going to make something that looks like this:



That is an image depicting nonsense.

Don't tell me how easy modeling is. I'm sure it's easy for you, but I've tried, and tried, and every time I eventually give up.

 

I took a year off for personal reasons, but Classic Sonic is done as it'll ever be unless someone is willing to fix the actual, hardcoded physics. I'm starting to get back into it just to polish the mod itself, but just take the classic sonic prm.xml and slap it in, I should not have to explain how to do that.

 

Aren't you just saying that learning is hard?

 

You have a link to that download? I lost that mod and would like to find it again

 

I never said it was easy to learn. Like I said it looked like technical wizardry when I first got into it. I even gave up on it for half a year thinking, "I'll never get this down". It took me some serious inspiration and competition from people around my age range for me to even care about learning it. That was the Blitz Sonic community that got me started. There were some seriously talented people there that didn't release much, but were some of the best around. Look up "Athbucket" for example. One of the sites that really helped me with the learning process was Blender Cookie. That site is amazing. Look around for their interface tutorial, then go to beginner, intermediate, then expert. However, you can just jump straight into Maya with the "Maya 2011 Essential Training" videos from Lynda; those are also great. Like I said, it isn't easy getting into it (and I won't act like it was easy for me, I gave up multiple times) but once you do, you've gotten the hardest part down. Now I feel kind of burnt out, so as much as I'd like to learn programming, my motivation for that dropped to poo. I tried, I failed. I'm a terrible coder and I'm not going to act like I'm good at it either. Like you said, people are better at somethings than others, but it's because we spend most of our time on only one thing. Once you've gotten something down we typically like to improve our skills in that one topic rather than jump into a completely different topic and start from ground zero.

I've seen your drawings though and think they're awesome. You could probably end up being an awesome modeler with your skills and style.

 

Drawing/Illustrating =/= Modelling. I don't think it's fair to judge one's future skills in modelling based on their art. The two share some of the same skill-sets but for the most part they're different beasts entirely.

 

Actually, once you really start modelling you can finally put your 2D artwork skills to the test. You'll still need to draw from time to time whether it be concept art or reference images for a character you're modelling. Also, later on down the road you'll have to think 2D from time to time when trying to think of an art style that sticks. 2D art does help, but not at all when you're just learning how to model. It's when you start bigger things like modelling Sonic for example will you have to use 2D for reference. That's why basically everyone who models Classic Sonic uses this reference image:

People seem to always use that as reference because they love the style. It's not just modelling and having proper topology; style matters too, and skill in 2D art will greatly help you in that topic. I noticed that when you get better in 2D your models get better, and when you get better in 3D so does your drawings. That's why in a lot of interviews of "behind the scenes" of certain games the modelers and animators almost always say that knowledge in 2D art can really help you. It can, but not right at the start.

 

Could it possibly be because you're gradually picking up skills from two almost different skillsets at the same time? I admit the two can't exist independently but at some point being a fantastic 2D artist isn't going to make you any better at 3D Modelling.

 

They aren't completely different. Some skills from 2D will Carry over to 3D. I agree, knowing how to make a clean outline won't help you much in 3D but knowing how you want your character look in different angles and the style you have in your head will. They are pretty different, but at points they tie into each other, and like you said they aren't completely independent. You still have to draw when doing 3D art like making your own textures in Photoshop and reference for your characters. I see where you're coming from though. Clearly, knowing line cleanup won't help you know where to place your edge-loops, but in my opinion 2D really does help for other things. As much as I like talking about this, I kind of feel this isn't about Sonic Generations mods but more about 3D artwork. Wait, aren't they the same? It's not like you have to code for Sonic Generations stage mods

 

Well yeah, of course you can get good at 3D modeling, and of course that directly translates into being able to model stages. You have to realize though a lot of the people making mods don't have tons of experience with modeling or even drawing and want to make something anyway. You also have to realize that making a good stage is a lot more than just modeling. You could be a terrible artist and still be a decent modder if you understand game design. (Besides, my personal stumbling block's always been level design, not modeling.)

Porting's also a nice way to get experience laying out a Generations stage object-wise and learning how the game works. That's essential to making anything decent.

 

Proportion, angles and shading are three areas that experience in 2D will benefit 3D work and vice versa. (Shading being your basic understanding of how a 2D image or camera angle is a representation of a 3D shape)


edit:
This is striking really close to home on the audio front. Some people compose and do nothing but compose. They get arrangers, orchestrators, copyists, proofreaders, recording engineers, recording production specialists, mix engineers, mastering engineers, etc to realize their vision. Each of those people are good at one thing, and it's very rare that you have someone who's good at more than a few areas except me because I'm amazing, and none that are good at everything.

That's why in anything other than indie setups, you usually see a pipeline. Concept artists never do actual level design. Level designers never actually really model anything themselves - they take assets created specifically for their level design and put them together. There literally are people who specialize in doing nothing but facading (modelling all the shit on the horizon that you can see but can't get to), people who specialize in doing nothing but post processing shaders, etc, etc, etc.

That's a pretty tall order for hobbyists to put together solo, unless they are extremely talented and have a shit ton of time, and again it's leagues in a different ballpark with noodling around in MSPaint for a Genesis hack (Yeah, I know I say MSPaint, but I'm not saying this in a derogatory fashion)

 

This is precisely why I am not afraid to download a stock model or rip one if I'm having a difficult time making what I want. I always try to sculpt/model it myself first, since the skill is important - but I *know* that spending forever on something just to have it look like garbage is a waste of time. Don't be afraid to source, as long as you make your mark on it, and make it obviously different from the original.

 

You're talking to a person who initially learned to program in BASIC by examining other people's code, looking up the syntax in a glossary book, and reverse engineering how things worked the hard way. I am not adverse to learning. But at some point you know what you aren't going to be able to get your head around.

Yeah. It's all about how you visualize things in your head, I guess. Some people have a good grasp on three-dimensional space. Like, Spaz, one of the artists for Archie's Sonic comic:



They used to have him do fake "3D" covers because that dude basically draws in wireframe. I've never been good at that kind of stuff. Perspective has been my #1 weak point.

 

My issue with modeling things is sometimes I just draw a blank when I'm drawing something for what I want to model, like when it comes to stage pieces. I'd rather some other people do the concept art for me and I'd do the modeling for it myself since I know I can at least get that right. If it comes to characters though, I'm fine as long as I don't follow the references perfectly since it's supposed to be a 3d model and add style into it since not everything can fit the reference without it looking somewhat weird. I sometimes use source work to get my framework started then I'm good from there to keep going. Since when I'm short on time and want to get things going I'll use a model as a stepping stone to get myself off the ground and get moving.

My main issue with doing a custom mod is time, I don't have a lot of time to do all that work myself, and getting other people who'd be willing to work on it as well is troublesome(I would love to work with people but everyone has their issues). Having 3 people in total working on something would get things done a lot faster(that is if the all have the same image) then one person working on it alone or 10 people working on it and conflicting with one another about what to do. Which is why I stick to porting stuff for now. I work on modeling custom things now and then but never to a full fledge state more to sate my taste of modeling something custom in freetime.

And I would say knowing how to draw can help you translate to 3d if you know how to draw in a 3d like state it can help you image how to have proper edge flow. I do it sometimes when I doodle in class and help me image how something should look in 3d.

 

I completely agree. You can make an amazing stage without any modeling experience. Modelers make the "Lego bricks" and the level designers and such put together the masterpiece. Sure, I can model, but what use is it if I cancel nearly everything I make? Most of the time is spent me staring at the screen thinking of what to do next. That's also my personal stumbling block.

Well, for me before I started modeling I wasn't the best at drawing. I was decent but not great. I used 3D to get better in 2D. I think you should still give it another go. If you have perspective down it will help you in 3D; if not you'll learn it as you go.

Same here. Sometimes I have so many great ideas for a stage I can't do them all, and another I have no clue what to make. Modeling isn't the problem; having the motivation and ideas are. I thought maybe we modelers can make like an asset pack out of our canceled stages so all the level designers have more "Legos" in their toolbox to make a good stage. That, and then all of our canceled stages wouldn't be a waste of time.

 

Nodoby is stopping you from releasing such assets. Credit will be given of course.