Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, May 27, 2021.
Assuming you meant OP, overpowered, I’d say not really considering you can cyloop rings at any time.
This is all well and good and very impressive... but I feel like it's completely missing the point of combat in Sonic. That is to say, less combat, more platforming and movement. I don't mind the basic enemy encounters where Sonic has to stop for just a brief moment to take down a few guys with 1HKOs. I also don't mind taking down the Guardians that hit you with some sort of platforming challenge such Ghost, Caterpillar, Asura and Spider. That is, provided that the combat section at the end is over quickly or skipped entirely (guaranteed not to be the case until you're mad level).
Frontiers doesn't really need it's combo system or anything to bring more depth to its combat in general. The combat is rightfully basic and if there are any problems at all its that it gets too much focus.
Then you're not the target audience for this mod. The target audience is people who DO want more out of the combat, which is fairly large.
This. It adds more depth to the combat for those who seek it. Is it the direction Sonic Team should take? Hell no but it’s a fun/somewhat impressive early mod that makes me excited for future modding.
This mod is aiming to improve the game, or "fix" it even. I'm not dissing the work that's gone into it. I'm questioning the opinions of the audience. People really want more of this Frontiers? Why? I don't get it.
I spoke harshly of the soundtrack before I listened to most of it. I understand it now and take it all back. Same thing happened to me back during Sonic Adventure’s initial release
Why do people like anything lol. I mean I guess for me I think the fighting is quick, it feels good, and to me it blends well with the movement.
@XCubed Welcome to the club lol
That's your interpretation of combat in a Sonic game. This is a mod for what is presented in Frontiers which does not fit your description at all. Frontiers doesn't need more depth but this mod does more to polishing out the questionable aspects like the forced cutscenes and locking moves behind arbitrary story checkpoints and giving gameplay incentives for engaging with the mechanic. Less automation, more game.
Maybe I'm dumb, what were the emeralds heading towards the islands for? Were the intentionally guiding Sonic from island to island? I don't remember the explanations.
Honestly, I can take it both ways. Give me some arena/boss content to really take advantage of the combat system, perhaps even some sort of custom level or mission stuff and this mod would be a blast. In terms of the core game's open zone experience, fast and swift fights work just fine for me as an extension of our platforming mechanics, though.
Who knows, if Titan refights is part of the challenges in the roadmap, this would be a good excuse for some extra challenge and depth.
I read SOMEWHERE (i dont remember where, might have been an Ian Flynn bumblecast question) that Sage summons the emeralds to the islands once she's integrated into cyberspace to try and defend against The End. Dont quote me on that
I liked it a lot at first and still like it conceptually but I'm still a little mixed on Frontiers' combat system... It's fun a lot of the time (The Recovery Smash/Grand Slam is a fucking awesome move for example), but the cutscene attacks like the Spin Slash or Homing Shot get a little grating to use after a while since you're really just watching it. I want to see more things like the Quick Cyloop, Phantom Rush and the aforementioned Recovery Smash in the next game.
If I had to compare it to another Sonic game, I'd say Unleashed's night stages are definitely still the better combat system in a Sonic game, but Frontiers is definitely the better 'Sonic' combat if you get what I'm saying. It feels very quick and snappy if you know how to use your moves right, which is really fun. I think @Aerosol said this earlier, but it feels like you're playing as cutscene Sonic in this game. It's like the developers asked the question "What if you could control all the cool shit that Sonic does in action cutscenes?" and this was their answer.
Again, I'm mixed on the execution currently, but I really hope they iterate on it well for Frontiers 2.
I just wanted to chime in with my thoughts, now that I have almost completed the game... (mild spoilers)
I'll join the general consensus that this game is an excellent step in the right direction, but it feels like a starting point.
I think the music is terrific and basically the electronic, 90s, and vapor-wavy tone that I've been asking for all these years. Despite the response from the nay-sayers, this proved to be an excellent and fitting choice as expected.
I'd like to see more discovery in the next game, for instance, some of the more interesting parts of the game for me was discovering hidden areas and structures, like when the Egg mech blasts open the pathway. More discovery and set-pieces would be great and add depth.
Like everyone else, I think the aesthetic of the open world is generic, and Sega should make their next game more similar to Sonic Prime, and more surreal. In the past I had said that I think Sonic should inhabit a "digital universe", something sort of base "simulation theory". This isn't to say that it needs to be outwardly acknowledged by the characters, but more of a guiding logic or principal on which everything else is built upon. To the inhabitants of this universe, this can be unacknowledged, simply reality from their perspective. I enjoyed that this game incorporated this concept to an extent with cyber space and the concept of digital uploading.
I also like that technology has an identifiable aesthetic here, sort of a... digital-organic style, not just the generic ultra-modern and plastic-y bland designs seen in previous games, although I still think the next game should move toward a dieselpunk aesthetic because it implies a physics (depth) to the world and supports the environmentalism narrative of the past which should be emphasized going forward IMO because it's socially relevant, and creates further depth by furnishing the conflict of Sonic v. Robotnik beyond the mere superficial conflict of "Eggman the authoritarian". Again, this is world building.
I'll reiterate, I enjoy that they pursued a sci-fi theme which I think best suits Sonic, as opposed to the magic/fantasy themes which arguably get more attention at times.
I think the lowest hanging fruit to create a better experience is... believe it or not... once again, Sonic's voice. There is something about the current iteration of Sonic which prevents me from feeling engrossed in the world. I think half of this could be resolved with better world building of the variety that was present in the classics. But, the other half just comes down to Sonic's voice, for me. He just sounds too old and generic. He doesn't sound like an interesting "character", but rather some guy you personally know. Jaleel and Ben are much more fitting voices IMO, and even the new guy in Prime is better. (Why does Sonic sound like he's 5'10", Caucasian, 40 y/o and living in California?) I wonder if it's the fact that Sega is Japanese that they don't seem to notice how ill-fitting the voice is. Sonic's voice comes across as... generic. It's a nice voice and all, he's a good actor, but it just doesn't suit or flesh out the character in the way it should. I saw a video on Youtube once where Sonic's voice is discussed and it was mentioned how Jaleel white was so fitting because the voice was slightly androgenous, a bit nasal, and not clearly any specific race, which were all advantageous for a tiny teenage mutant hedgehog. I know the jury is still out on Chris Pratt as Mario, but from where we stand at the moment, I see this as similar. It's much more enduring for Mario to have a unique voice, as opposed to some man in a studio booth. The same applies to Sonic, and I'm absolutely baffled that Sega doesn't realize this and change course.
I'm guessing we're moving all discussion to here, and leaving the Spoiler topic since the game's been out for a few months now? I'll spoiler this otherwise, just to be safe.
Spoiler: Final Boss
Idle thoughts: The End seemed to be absolutely determined to destroy the Ancients... or was it really after them?
Was it actually after the Chaos Emeralds? The Chaos Emeralds bring life to everything around them, even reviving Sonic from Death that one time.
The End is, well, the end, death. The opposite of the life the Chaos Emeralds bring.
When The End is free, it never seems to target Earth in it's combat: its full focus is on Super Sonic, aka Sonic wielding all seven Chaos Emeralds. It never deviates to take aim at Earth.
Were the Ancients just caught in the crossfire of an eternal power struggle between Life and Death? Did it target the Ancient's world to destroy the Chaos Emeralds, chase the Chaos Emeralds across the cosmos and attacked the Ancients so they wouldn't fly off with the Chaos Emeralds a second time?
I can only imagine The End finding out about the Master Emerald...
From the dialogue in the final boss fight, I gather that The End was just a powerful and malicious entity that went about destroying life wherever it found it across the universe. It probably wasn't interested in the Chaos Emeralds or any kind of power. All it did was seek the end of everything it came across.
The Ancients were the first beings to successfully evade it, and later put up enough of a fight to seal it in cyberspace even if they could not truly defeat it. It took the combined powers of Super Sonic, the Supreme Titan and Eggman's AI that was enhanced by the Ancient's technology to eventually destroy the entity.
Apparently the designer intended for it to be literal death itself. I also feel like, in a universe with Babylonians, Black Arms, Robotnik's own space fleet, the Wisps being perfectly fine in the void of space, Space Travel is a fairly common thing for species to develop, so the idea of The End being huffy since one species was able to use such capabilities to flee it seems weird.
If I were a malicious entity looking to destroy life for the evulz, I wouldn't have just destroyed their planet in a quick, decisive strike. I'd pick them off over time and if some escaped, I'd let them since I'd have more to destroy when they repopulate later.
The End's behaviour is just incredibly different in both attacks. It wipes out the Ancient's planet in one strike, but never does the same with Earth. The only thing I could think of is it fearing waking both Gaias and having them attack in response, but... does The End fear anything?
We only see the moment at which the Ancients' original planet was destroyed, but we don't see what happened in the moments before that. If it attacked Earth methodically, specifically targeting the Ancients' elements on the Starfall Islands, I think that it probably took the same approach for the original planet. If it just took them down in one single attack as you say it did, how did the Ancients ever have a chance to escape? It almost certainly attacked the same way each time, by essentially starting war.
It sets a target to annihilation, and remains stalwart in its efforts to see that through. It's not devoid of emotion either. Again from its dialogue, its incredibly arrogant. It was annoyed to have been sealed within cyberspace, effectively defeated for a second time. So even if there were other potential targets (space faring or not), it only wanted to destroy its initial target and of no be seated until it has finished.
They saw a Moon heading to their homeworld and vacated. Even if it wasn't a malicious entity, a moon heading for your homeworld is a bit of a concern. As far as I can see, the whole slicing of the planet was their first indication it wasn't just a rogue body about to slam into their planet.
The Ancients didn't seem to have any meaningful space travel beforehand: they had to use the Chaos Emeralds to begin their journey. Also, did they get their entire population off, or was there some left on... amma call their homeworld Uraia, did they get everyone off Uraia or it was an ark situation for them where they got enough people off it?
But conversely, they weren't doing well on Earth, so how much technology was developed on Earth and how much stemmed from Uraia? And if the tech came from Uraia, how come they weren't able to develop a small army of Titans there, assuming Uraia and Ancients are comparable to Earth and Humans in population density. Four were at least able to seal The End, so a small army would've probably been more capable.
Also, there were a lot more ships than Chaos Emeralds, so... not sure if all the ships had Chaos Engines and what exactly the Chaos Engines were doing, if they were enabling space travel or some sort of hyperdrive that enabled them to get away from The End and The End was playing catch-up, and if they were wirelessly powering all the ships with Chaos Emeralds or what have you...
I'll probably go back through, see if I'm missing an explanation somewhere.
If we accept the premise that the game should have combat then the solution is to flesh the combat out and make it more engaging. Making the combat simplistic and over quickly isn't a solution to the combat not being engaging. If you take that approach then you might as well remove combat from the game entirely. And yeah, I know you think Frontiers shouldn't have combat (I agree). But I don't think making combat intentionally simplistic and quick is a solution in itself. It does make the tedious parts of the game quicker and the pain less long in duration but doesn't actually solve the problem.
It's a pet peeve of mine. Either you remove a game component or you flesh it out and make it better. Having a game component be less tedious by making it simplistic and quick is outright bad game design in my eyes.
The idea of the Gaias working together to take down The End is amusing to me
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