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Sonic Frontiers Thread - PS4, PS5, Xbox, Switch, PC

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, May 27, 2021.

  1. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    The point he's making is that the loop massively autocorrects and serves as a form of automation to cover up inaccurate controls. If you miss the hoop then yes you should die. You don't because the developers know the controls are not good enough for precise platforming.

    It's just more automation and its something I think is a problem in the overworld too. There are loads of springs which automate launch you through hoops and rails. If you don't care about automation it's no big deal but it's automation. It's no different to Forces.

    And I think people need to stop complaining about negativity. I'm not constantly complaining about everyone being positive about a game I think looks below average in some respects (like combat). I mean I've okay done it once but not constantly. We have just as much a right to complain as you do to praise.

    And I think some of the aspects of the game look good. I think the story and Sage have hilarious dark era Sonic vibes honestly but I think it'll be entertaining. I think the Cyberspace levels have a really nice artstyle. I actually like the juxtaposition of open world and Cyberspace. I think the open world geometry design has been good. But I also think some of the stuff is really unacceptable. I think the combat looks atrocious. I think the generic platforms and abundance of sky rails in the open world look really ugly. It's not black and white game is good or bad.
     
  2. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    I mean, that is the sole reason the Homing Attack exists. But yeah, they should've been making rings (and airborne objects) easier to contact years ago.
     
  3. Trippled

    Trippled

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    I'm more worried about the roads in the city not "guiding" Sonic automatically, like in Forces? It looks like Sonic is turning manually...I hope.
     
  4. Vertette

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    CPZ act 2 in Generations has a shortcut near the beginning on the left path where you have to aim a jump boost into an orange ring. It's not that hard to get it, but the very stiff controls make it really hard to correct yourself in mid-air if your aim is slightly off. Not fun when that happens. I'll happily take a bigger hitbox.
     
  5. MrMechanic

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    Yeah so, this is something I'm a bit worried about and it sort of creeps into my main issue with the Cyberspace stages too.

    The presentation of the overworld, is that it's a vast open map, you're free to go anywhere, do anything, you are totally 'free'. But... Every time we see clips of overworld, there's a clear 'directed path' and it almost always starts with either a grind rail, booster, or spring, which takes you into more of those things, this results in you going on a set trajectory, you've made progress through this section of the map, but you weren't actually doing anything more complex other than "at which point during this grind, should I press jump?"

    There's not too much in terms of decisions for the player, you're effectively watching Sonic do all this cool stuff, instead of actually doing it yourself.

    And this really creeps in my main problem with the Cyberspace stages. I'm sure we've all seen complaints and there's probably a few in here about the layout of the stages, and today we get a somewhat narrative related explanation for it.

    For me at least, my problem has never been this stage uses the layout of X, how lazy... My problem is, the boost gameplay for the last 10 years is kinda novel the first time you play it, but on repeat you really do see how limited it is, you don't get much in terms of options to overcome obstacles, so the number of decisions you can make as a player is greatly reduced. And I'd argue this is a major problem with Sonic for the last 10 years, and one of the reasons why people tend to favour replaying the Adventure games over more recent titles.

    We've now go stages using layouts from Generations, Unleashed and I wouldn't be surprised if Forces pops up too. The gameplay is almost, not quite... but almost identical to the boost gameplay we've had for the last 10 years... This... Doesn't feel like it's going to provide more depth or resolve all the complaints it's had against it for the last decade.

    A good example of this which I think supports my point, is the City stage that re-uses the layout from City Escape (DC). Lots of people reacted totally the opposite to when they say Gens and Unleashed layouts, in fact I've even seen several memes pointing this out. And I think it's due to the differing gameplay, yes people go hype for the SA games, but there's reasons for that, and I'd argue it's due to the gameplay allowing for so many more choices and options for just one character type Vs what the boost gameplay offers...

    But in Frontiers, their City Escape, isn't running the DC gameplay, it's running boost. You're... Not going to be able to play it like you do the DC version, there's going to be a lot more restrictions, and outside of doing 'the fast route', is there going to be gameplay to support simply having fun in that stage for just 'playing' which the original does allow for.

    Now before anyone gets the wrong idea, the 'adventure' gameplay is far from perfect, and oh my goodness, I certainly have opinions on it, but my argument is purely on the 'how much more options and choices the player can make with Sonic, Vs what you get and can do under boost formula.

    ... This post definitely sounded better in my head.
     
  6. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    Saying Sonic uses large hitboxes to cover up bad controls isn't fair, considering it's been a staple of Mario design ever since it went to 3D. You'll notice smaller objects, or objects in midair such as coins have large hitboxes too. It has nothing to do with precision, it's just how good game feel is achieved. Sonic is a mascot platformer. It should be as accessible for children as possible, and having large hitboxes on a dash ring to help make sure the player doesn't leap to their doom helps so that they don't feel frustrated.

    The more systemic issue is that there shouldn't be an opportunity for the player to leap to their doom in the first place. This Crash Bandicoot-esque level design where instant death hazards are all over the place really doesn't make sense for a game like Sonic. In an ideal world, you would require more precision to hit the ring, but if you didn't, the result wouldn't be death, it'd just be a lower path.
     
  7. Childish

    Childish

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    I really do miss that about the classics, missing a jump usually just sent you to the bottom path for a bit. I wish we could have a level that isn't a hot wheels track over a void. That's the part of the open world I'm most interested in, so often in boost games I'm resetting because I messed up slightly and went on a slower path but in the open world there's no timer or anything, I can just dick around recreating the Sonic CD intro.
     
  8. Starduster

    Starduster

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    Kirby and the Forgotten Land features a kind of aim assist system where the game will cheat your action if it looks like it should hit. This was done because Kirby’s spherical nature makes it hard to tell where he’s looking in 3D. That doesn’t mean Kirby’s design is bad (slander my pink son and you’re gonna have a bad time), just that it has its own challenges that need to be accommodated for in certain circumstances. Likewise, Sonic’s handling in Frontiers looks to be a huge step up from the boost games, but that doesn’t change the fact that precision platforming at high speeds is always going to be difficult, and there’s the problem. It’s not that Sonic’s controls are bad (in this game), it’s that the gameplay makes precision difficult, so this needs to be compensated for.

    Granted, this is very specific to the dash hoop in cyberspace and I really don’t care for dash panels and such in the overworld but I still see what we’re getting as a huge step up from Forces.
     
  9. LockOnTommy11

    LockOnTommy11

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    I think to get rid of all of this issue of automation and whatnot, Sonic just needs to stop going at breakneck speeds.

    Sonic is a platforming game where you have opportunities to go fast, but you don’t always need to. Somehow it seems that SEGA think that slowing him down for gameplay will break his character.

    I think it would be far more rewarding to only have him go at high speeds infrequently in game, as well as during cutscenes. Otherwise he should really play like Sonic Jam / Adventure games. Slowing down would also go towards solving that camera issue they’ve always had.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
  10. Azookara

    Azookara

    yup Member
    It's worth noting the nearly-unmissable string of dash hoops is over the pit we're talking about.

    I'm sure they have their own sort of rule or philosophy on that they're abiding to; as if a means of delivering spectacle ("look at this big gap you're crossing") without the frustration of falling in. Same goes for putting the lines of three rails over the same pits.

    It doesn't make it any less cheap or repetitive, but I'd bet that's what their angle is.
     
  11. MH MD

    MH MD

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    Stating larger hitboxes as a sign of automataion and bad control is funny, cause the best controlling games with the best game feel usually have generous hitboxes as well, it’s good game design 101

    Like…in fighting games, a genre where precision and good controls is very important, pixel-perfect hit boxes are terrible, actually, and frowned upon.

    and the best games in the genre with the best game-feel do have larger hitboxes, it add to the feeling of hits, not the opposite

    Or let’s say, shooting games, enemies usually have larger hurtboxes to make hitting them easier, it actually resaults in better game feel, even if the shooting is very precise, having perfect hurtboxes usually results in a miserable experience

    large hit/hurtboxes does not equals automation at all, it’s very different separate thing.

    Man….the discourse around this game in the last 2 days has gotten weird lol
     
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  12. Mana

    Mana

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    Well, to be fair, anime and manga fans tend to stay up to date with release information and don't need advertising to know when it's releasing.

    I knew to keep in the back of my head that a dragon ball movie was coming in August since June and just got the exact dates on the first of August. That's a large majority of the Fandom too.
     
  13. Kyro

    Kyro

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    That section is basically exactly what I was thinking of, yeah.

    But yeah, im pretty much on board still with everyone here. I think its a big reason discourse around the game is very frustrating, sometimes. More dedicated fans are expecting some very specific things, or for the game to be a blvery precise, completely unautomated experience that challenges you at every turn.

    But we are still talking about a series ultimately made for kids, a series that has become increasingly less approachable the faster sonics gotten. We've had some semblance of automation from the very beginning and lets be honest, we're never gonna get rid of it entirely, not from SEGA themselves.

    A dash hoop having a slightly larger hitbox than it seems should be the LEAST of our concerns. Its just silly to me
     
  14. jubbalub

    jubbalub

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    See why can't all of the cyberspace levels we've seen look like that? :(
     
  15. Snowbound

    Snowbound

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    The city level shown off today was the best looking cyberspace stage so far. There’s some valid criticisms I agree with, such as the dash ring’s hitbox being used to compensate for awful bottomless pits, however I’m more concerned about the lack of drifting in the clip. After reevaluating the picture of frontiers controls I now see that you can only drift when coming in contact with “drift dash panels”
    D26CE41F-D397-4173-AA57-49D330BC6D8E.jpeg
    This is really disappointing. Drifting was a large part of what made Unleashed and Generations fun. I saw someone on twitter say that the reuse of level design in Frontiers will allow the developers to learn what makes good sonic level design… I’m skeptical of this because they don’t seem to be bringing back the mechanics that made those level design work. They’re brining back Generations levels with the nerfed Colors/Forces drift. They’re bringing back adventure layouts without the spindash.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2022
  16. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    sorry mods to bring this up again but I'd like to elaborate, fundamentally 2D Sonic has less data you have to parse to react than the modern 3D titles, so it's less taxing to handle. It has fewer colors, fewer items on screen, and very few aspects of the level design mix both "fast" and "react now or die" - and the bits that do are the Special Stages. Going super fast at the end of Carnival Night Zone is for the spectacle, the game doesn't expect me to spot (or look up a guide and then memorize) the location of a single object that I need to jump for in the middle of that segment*.

    I got into Sonic because we had a Genesis and my parents played it - it was accessible enough for "bored housewife" and "guy who mainly plays turn-based PC titles". I can't say the same for the modern boost titles.

    I mean, it's also because fighting games have a higher technical floor too. I've wanted to get into fighting games for ages, but there are scenes and games that can and will gate players based on whether they have ethernet or not. Not "internet", ethernet. A wifi setup like mine that is good for great performance in an MMO is not good enough for a 1 v 1 fighting game lmao. Plus you also have the whole "controller vs stick vs keyboard" debates. It's a lot to invest in before you find a game you even want to hold onto for a while. Why bother when you can play literally any other competitive genre.

    Another example is Celeste, a game that is punishing on its face but actually has a lot of "cheats" to silently help the player, for instance if the player would just miss something the collision would fudge it to make it successful anyway. It's why that game took off like a rocket and also why the TAS runs of that game are so, so bonkers.

    * this is why I will never 100% Sonic Advance 2 even with savestates, life is too short for this nonsense lmao
     
  17. foXcollr

    foXcollr

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    A lot of us in the FGC (in real communities, not random toxic people online) actually vouch for features that make the learning process more accessible, because many FGs lack resources and tutorials and offline communities. There's a lot of gatekeepers out there, but formal communities like the platform fighter community actually dedicate lots of money to creating resources to grow the community. The goal with fighting games isn't to make the skill floor higher for no reason so nobody can play, it's to make learning the game accessible and lower the skill floor ***without*** compromising the skill ceiling. Ex: buffer systems aren't inherently bad, but 5-10 frame buffer genuinely limits the competitive integrity of a game and often makes some actions impossible (see: SSBU, Melty Blood: Type Lumina). Autocombos aren't inherently bad and they prevent new players from feeling isolated playing against their friends, but an autocombo should never be optimal and there should be an easy system to cancel autocombos or disable them altogether for competitive play. I don't agree with this "arcade" style of making games a chore for no reason (which isn't even real difficulty), Sonic is a great example of something that was originally a one button game that was accessible for beginners, but it's physics and mechanics provided a lot of depth that made the game popular with speedrunners. Same with something like Mario Odyssey, its movement options allow for a high skill ceiling but it's extremely accessible to a wide range of people. That's also kinda what I think Sonic should be, and I'm hoping Frontiers allows for more depth of mechanics while also being a game that is more approachable for people outside the fanbase.

    Re: the boost rings, I actually kind of like the way they seem to work in this game. I don't mind that Sonic "auto corrects" because that's still a very reasonable hitbox considering how Sonic controls. Even with tighter controls (still not sure why anyone is in denial about the different controls), it is unreasonable to make a hitbox that small. It doesn't feel intuitively difficult at that point, just needlessly specific. If the ring's actual model was the size of it's hitbox I don't think it would be as jarring, but idk I feel the size of the hitbox is pretty reasonable. I also like that you have a little bit of control coming out of them. Still a bit disapponted with the level of automated rail paths, though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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  18. Black Squirrel

    Black Squirrel

    often the real thing™ Wiki Sysop
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    It's wiki time. There's no need to be afraid.
    I'm waiting for the build where the draw distance doesn't suck. This isn't it.

    There's nothing necessarily wrong with taking "janky" products to conventions - this site was founded on one!*

    But we're a little over two months from launch and it still looks like glorified litter picking. A big chunk of land with "stuff" in it - get all the "stuff". Fight the non-descript black things with time-wasting moves that don't look as if they're connecting. I agree, it's not really acceptable, but people seem to be accepting it anyway, probably because they haven't played enough video games.

    The other thought I had... is that there's no music. I imagine that's intentional and the final game will ship with something but it's starting to feel like expectations management - they've claimed it won't be "upbeat", but I'm genuinely wondering if that's code for "it kinda sucks, we're doing the bare minimum, we don't want people to talk about it".



    *... well okay I'm not sure the Simon Wai Sonic 2 prototype was actually demonstrated to the general public but the Nick Arcade one was!
     
  19. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    Game sold. That fighting style of "I hit you in every way possible because you stand no chance against me and I need to show it to you through all this trolling" won me, and playing pinball against that boss too, though I agree that boss has less animation than Heavy and Bomb. Also liked those moments where Sonic starts in front of some Kocos and ignores them even by stepping on them, because that's how I'll probably deal with those lego heads. And of course that cyberboost level looked appealing, but I have to play the stuff to get the real feel, so I won't judge controls until I play.

    I hope this is customizable, I hate using sticks for button presses because I continously press them by accident. Meanwhile the d-pad isn't fully used and it seems a trigger is unused too (or non-existent, have they removed one from the newer controllers?).

    Yep, that's me, it's like the last decade hasn't happened because everything I've played has run on inferior technology or was that old since the beginning.
     
  20. Josh

    Josh

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    You hear that more these days, but in their own time the complaints about the classics tended to be just the opposite: That they were all flash and no substance, and that they lacked depth and challenge for the sake of being accessible, and that they were WAY too easy. "You can take as many hits as you want as long as you can hold onto one ring, how is that supposed to be fun!?" was a criticism I heard from a lot of N64 and PSX fanboys back in the day.

    To quote NextGen's 1999 Sonic Adventure review: "Sonic Team has done a wonderful job of converting the blue hedgehog from his 2D ancestry, and this game plays exactly as you would expect a 3D Sonic to play. Unfortunately, with that come some of the weaknesses that were inherent in the original. Namely, that most of the time you just fly straight through the levels at unimaginable speeds with a minimum of exploration. There are parts of the game where you just hold forward and pray that Sonic is doing all right - hardly the stuff to keep Miyamoto up at night."

    A lot of the complaints people have now about the boost games were also said about the Adventure games, which were also said about the classics. The standards of what makes a game (especially a game targeted at kids) "fair" have trended in a more forgiving direction over the years, and Sonic games have almost always fallen on the progressive side of that, meaning they've always caught flack from people who find them too forgiving.

    However, the classics are far enough in the past that when people accustomed to today's standards look back on them, these games that were once derided as being too easy are now judged as being too hard instead. Strange, isn't it? :V (And Palas' super insightful examination of how Sega's syntax failed also definitely applies to all of this, too. I think about that post a lot!)
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2022
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