Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, May 27, 2021.
Hmm. 'Guess Forces really did leave something of a stigma, huh?
With how atrocious that game was to play and how blatantly rushed out it was with unfun level design and how safe as a product it was despite how the advertising tried to hype it up as anything but safe?
Yeah, I can see a lot of people burned for that. And even with it being five years ago which is forever in the gaming industry (Sonic Forces came out the year the Switch came out at that and people are clamoring for a system upgrade), that's the last major Sonic release alongside Mania, so yeah, it's stuck in people's heads.
I actually don't like the games to play that much and mainly buy them to show of the system for graphics, but I never see the outcry with R&C on social media to what Sonic gets, even if its the same game time and time again, just with nicer graphics (and well that's not always a bad thing)
I think its unfair myself and double standards. Mario has been using enemies designs 1st used in the 80's and no outcry but for Sonic it's somehow wrong and terrible. I think the big issue for Sonic as been in quality of games, not so much if the team looks to reuse old assets
I'm not having that, that just seems an excuse for Mario to use old stuff, but let's bash Sonic for using old assets, i hate double standards, more so when it comes to anything bloody Nintendo/.
To give Sonic Team credit most of their 3D games look to have totally brand new stages, its the gameplay that's far more of the issue and also the feeling I have with their games that just a bit more work and a little delay, could have made all the difference
Generation was a celebration of all things Sonic, it was going to use the old stages. It's not like Sonic Forces, Sonic Colors, Lost World didn't have totally brand new stages, was it?
No outcry isn't quite right. There's always some detractors over Mario for not being like Mario 64/Sunshine, for reusing certain things too much or basically being a re-release of the same basic idea with new power-ups on top, and so forth. Every time I see someone say there isn't an outcry they usually don't seem to actually know what's really being said. New Super Mario Bros. 2 on the 3DS for example was widely criticized for being more New Super Mario Bros. but with coin-focused retreads of the pre-existing power-ups, meaning it was just the ultimate retread with minor tweaks.
Yakuza as an example again, the fans themselves don't mind Kamurocho and even moveset reusage so long as it's done well and adds more to the world, cast and overall story that they can't get enough of. There's actually a ton of fandom in-jokes about when certain things get reused, it's just a weird part of the charm. But then you get the Kiwami remakes, and suddenly bosses start using movesets of characters from completely different games instead of their original moves and that's when the fans get annoyed. Stuff like that always has a tipping point.
Like I said before, context is everything.
I think outcry is quite right myself. How many times have you seen calls for Mario, R&C or Yakuza to be handed out to an outside developer? every time Sonic Team show off a new game, in games in the hate, usually from the the ones who don't even play or buy the Sonic 3D games
It's okay for every R&C and Yakuza game to play and look pretty much the same, that's what fans want, just not only for Sonic Team; I just find the whole Sonic and Sonic Team bashing so unfair and uncalled for (other than the likes of 06 and Shadow)
I'll take one last stab at this for you.
If theres a local ice cream shop that's been in your town for 50 years, and they're famous for only selling chocolate and vanilla ice cream, are you going to be disappointed if you go there one day, and they don't have strawberry? No. Because they only sell chocolate and vanilla. You know this, everyone in the town knows this. It's been this way for 50 years. This is Mario.
If you go to Baskin-Robbins (known for their 31 flavors) and you find out they only are serving chocolate and vanilla now, are you going to be disappointed? Of-course. You were expecting more variety. They're known for their 31 flavors! This is Sonic.
Am I "making an excuse for the local shop to only sell vanilla and chocolate ice cream"? Or is one shop famous for 2 flavors that people seem to like, and another is famous for its wider variety? It's not "double-standards". These franchises set different standards for themselves.
Sonic is selling "Fewer and more similar flavors of ice cream" these days and people miss when there was more variety. Sonic Team might have just set the bar too high back on the day. They created these expectations to wow players into their franchise, and now they're having trouble keeping up, and that makes people disappointed.
...I had another part of this response written up addressing the comments on all these specific games, but that really just gets into my personal opinions on those games and their stage variety, which is not actually related the larger, general point I'm trying to make.
People are complaining about "asset reuse", when asset reuse isn't even the problem. Long-time fans feel like Sonic isn't offering something it used to; that's all there is to it. It's just the "Momentum & Slope Physics" conversation all over again, only this time it's about anesthetics rather than control mechanics.
Alright, I'm truly done with this topic.
I'm sure y'all know I am firmly on the side of "calm down pls" when it comes to Frontiers' asset reuse debacle, but I will say people are justified in not liking the asset reuse in Forces and other past titles. That analogy in particular has a few flaws. And not pedantic flaws, like.. holes that break the analogy.
The big one being that, in the world of this analogy, there is no parallel to a new game. If flavors are levels/assets/elements of a game, then for the analogy to work this has to be a universe where you pay $60 as a one-time lifetime fee, and you can then eat any flavor on the menu whenever you want, like all the content in a game is available to you at all times. And a new game would therefore be a sequel to the restaurant, or a whole new menu that you have to pay for. If we treat this like going to an ice cream stand with X number of flavors that you pay for individually each time, then this is more akin to an arcade, like you go to Dave & Buster's and you come to expect the same 2 games there every time, and you pay a fee each time.
So let's just assume you pay this lifetime menu fee and you now have access to all 9 flavors at Dairy Queen. Then Dairy Queen 2 (in Japan, Dairy Queen World Adventure) opens up, and they advertise this as a whole new menu... but 2 of the flavors from the first Dairy Queen have made a return. You really loved Charamel Plant and Green Hill Cone, but... not this much. Green Hill Cone is also a smaller portion now, and for some reason when you eat it terrible music plays. Where is that coming from? Anyway, you kinda are justified in being disappointed here because you paid the same price for a brand-new menu and you got a menu with some of the same flavors as the one you already paid for.
And that's not to say that Forces didn't include any new things on the menu, but most of those new things are different cone shapes and alternate sprinkle colors for your ice cream to wear. Which is not the main attraction. And again, gotta reiterate I am responding to Lambda and the convo about asset reuse in general, not making any assumptions about Frontiers.
Yeah, it's just kind of this thing where occasionally Green Hill might be appealing again, Mania's Act 2 is honestly the best official GH rendition for me ever and Generations was definitely a huge step up from the secret Green Hill in Adventure 2, but it's kind of degrading every other time it's used directly again. Even Sunset Hill in Advance 3 is more appreciated than Forces' Sand Hills, though in that case there was also simply more level overall in those acts than all of Forces making use of its own zone.
After Forces, a lot of people aren't just disappointed by seeing Sky Sanctuary despite the fact that it's rarely appeared, it's that it will probably just not be as polished or fun in level design as Generations did it. Is that fair when we've barely seen anything? No. Is it expected because level design after Generations dropped off a cliff, and in my opinion was already kinda not great there too? Yes.
Interview with Ian Flynn on Frontiers’ story: https://www.ign.com/articles/sonic-...dr-eggman-story-ign-first?utm_source=facebook
LOL! Charamel Plant and Green Hill Cone where you eat it and terrible music plays legit cracked me up. Love it.
But, my analogy wasn't meant to be a 1-to-1 analogy for the entire Sonic franchise, it was about how different brands set different expectations using precedent, and how people's responses to change are formed by these precedents which are set by the very brands people complain about.
I'm really only trying to answer the question: "Why are people complaining about Sonic Team reusing locations when nobody cares about Mario reusing things all the time."
I feel like Ian's strength lies in how he characterizes the Sonic cast (except Shadow lmao), so it's good to hear he's able to do some fun things with the characters. What really interests me are these quotes though:
It seems like the leaks were definitely true then, the Chaos Emeralds' history is gonna get explored in this game. Sounds very interesting.
Some more Sonic Origins .exe leftover files
Hey , i think you are in the wrong thread-
*read the tweets*
Some very interesting strings in here.
"FishingBigFirstTalked"? Is Big going to be involved with fishing?
Interesting, albeit spoiler-heavy.
I'm getting the impression we'll be doing some sort of gardening activity? And I read something about a music box, will this be a thing?
I'm starting to get excited!
"Cyan Particle" ? I wear to fucking god if they bring back the wisps again imma loose it lmao
I want to see the full list of stuff mined from there. If there's anything about Sonic's enemy-sense, we could confirm the Demon Slayer leak.
I imagine this is actually the boost trail effect that happens when performing the Cy-Loop or any techniques that use that digital boost effect, but it could totally be a wisp in some of the cyberspace levels
Actually, this quote makes me fear the direction he wants to take Eggman, because he has a longstanding history of trying to make Eggman "scary" and psychopathic. Doing actual realistic war crimes like torture and just really cruel down-to-earth things that go beyond putting animals in robots and resurrecting ancient evils and taking over the world.
I hope that's not the case here. Eggman is not that kind of villain, nor should he be.
I mean, it wouldn't be foreign as a thing, Forces certainly tried its hand albeit unsuccessfully. My guess is Eggman was scouting out Starfall and ends up stranded there, needing Sonic's aid with his own agenda in the works but not as the primary antagonist.
Separate names with a comma.