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Sonic Frontiers Thread - PS4, PS5, Xbox, Switch, PC

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, May 27, 2021.

  1. Starduster

    Starduster

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    I imagine that’s also tied into Sonic’s ability to scale walls at a run rather than a slow climb. Honestly, I don’t see much point of limiting boosting in the overworld given it’s already pared down from the bullet train it was in previous games, but then I imagine strategic stamina usage would really enrich the time attack challenges we’ve heard about.
     
  2. ChaddyFantome

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    Can't say I agree, because it devolves the entire interaction to "react to the reticle and sound queue" as opposed to a more organic judging of your positioning relative to the enemy, which I am simply not a fan of.
    This again I feel is a consequence of being so used to the reticle that its easier to blame the game rather than ones own timing, position, etc. Not to say there homing attack NEVER gaffs, but if it ever does, it isn't because of a lack of reticle. It would be a an issue with the parameters of the move relative to the level design.

    Things like this for example is an exaggerated but ultimately great way of encapsulating the kind of thing I mean when describing the gameplay the homing attack sans reticle used to cultivate by comparison.

    Just can't and doesn't exist in modern games designed around the fact you have a reticle because not only is the interaction more shallow, but the game has to design itself around it by consequence which makes the interaction itself more uninteresting in a compounding manner.

    The homing attack now is also far more stale and rigid to accommodate it, whereas before you had homing attack chains designed around maneuvering yourself in the air long enough to space into a next enemy to properly close the gap by homing the jump button to increase the height of your bounce and the like. There was also an element of aiming it as Sonic homed in on the target relative to what the player faced towards.

    Nowadays, homing attack chains are just "mash A" fests or "press A when the reticle appears" fests. And whenever I see someone go back to games without it, I very quickly see them engage in the habit of interacting with the homing attack as if it should work in this fashion, pretty much letting go of the analog stick and merely tapping A, being confused why they don't automatically just go through a chain with minimal thought or effort. It's just far less interesting.
     
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  3. I know Unleashed had that green variant of the floating spinner enemies that would give off electricity every few seconds to make you have to time the homing attack more carefully. Also those springs that flipped between safe and spiked. And the eggman springs that put you on the wrong path and punished you for spamming the homing attack without thinking. So there’s been a little bit of depth, but those are mostly just tests of reflexes.

    SA1 might have done it best, where a lot of enemies had slight nuances you had to work around. The red guys with the ring of fire in Red Mountain, the Chameleons that disappear in Lost World, and those things in Final Egg that would swat you away if you tried to homing attack them from the front.

    I was never a big fan of the reticle myself but if it makes everyone else’s lives easier than I guess it doesn’t hurt.
     
  4. Crimson Neo

    Crimson Neo

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  5. I know what you were referring to. actually making use of the styff mentioned in the secibd to last paragraph is one of several reasons I prefer SA2's gameplay to 1's, though they're both terrible, kind of for opposite reasons.

    However, I am not sure if you watched that video example, but besides the reticle, it was pretty much the same thing as that mod you just showcased, just in 2D. Pretty sure I can find more if I tried. I just typed in "Unleashed project" because that was the most recent memory I had of seeing it, and posted the first example I saw.

    In fact, kind of in direct contrast to what you just sai, I'm pretty sure my experience with generations is one of the reasons I had little issue going into SA2 and using it's homing attack. The timing felt similar to me, even if I was previously basing that timing on the appearance of a reticle rather than what position I was in in relation to the target. And I've actually found myself at odds with people who say it doesn't work properly in that game, and chalked it up to a skill issue.

    However, frankly speaking, isn't the fact that we see so many confused and not doing it properly in itself an indication that there is an issue here? Like, i don't know how I k now the timing and positioning of this stuff. It's one of those things you kind of just have to know, as the games itself give no indication that this is something you need to concern yourself with, or how to do so properly.
     
  6. Thought about it a little bit the other night, and in my view it's like getting rid of drop shadows with the argument being they take all the skill out of 3d platforming.

    Saw some people over in the subreddit for Crash at one point expressing dissatisfaction with the inclusion of a more effective version of it in Crash 4, only to realize that Crash 4 was actually still pretty difficult, in some cases even moreso than in previous crash games.

    It didn't eliminate the skill. just the guess work
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  7. Snub-n0zeMunkey

    Snub-n0zeMunkey

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    wow so it looks like Sonic '06 will finally be dethroned as being the longest Sonic game ever
     
  8. This is music to my ears. It’s been a long time since a Sonic game presented a good challenge for me to 100%. Last one that comes to mind is Unleashed.
     
  9. ChaddyFantome

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    I did watch it, and while it LOOKS similar and a completely surface level, its completely different in terms of how the player actually engages with the gameplay. In the unleashed footage, again, the interaction devolves into just timing the A press when the reticle appears, whereas in the video I provided, the player has to do a bunch of positioning and aerial maneuvering and judging of their spacing as well as manipulating their airtime off of bounces off of the homing attack to continue the chains. It's a much more organic and active gameplay experience by comparison that has more dimension, room for iteration and application if you ask me

    Can't say I agree. Again, it's not just a question of timing because my issue is the fact reticle homing attack devolves it just to a reaction timing minigame where the player's only involvement is pressing the A button at the right time when the reticle appears, or in most scenarios, just mashing A to get through the chain. There is much less actually going on in terms of gameplay and player interaction and the move feels less like an extension of the player's abilities and more like a QTE.
    Again, I chalk it up to newer games teaching people bad habits in regards to how they should be expected to interact with and approach the homing attack to begin with. The same people that will have you believe the homing attack is the most inconsistent thing in these games will also say it's "just mashing A" with no depth, both false statements that seemingly come from the expectation that the way it works in newer games with the reticle are "how it's supposed to work" and looking at it in past games as a "beta version that didn't get the memo".
    In past games, the homing attack had a much more consistent range and set of parameters whereas in newer games I swear it is modular base don whatever part of the level and even which game you are playing and whether Sonic is in 2D or 3D. Because of that in past games, there was a level of skill in familiarizing and getting a feel for the control and positioning of the homing attack and learning to apply it consistently the same way you would a jump or a badnik bounce or any other basic move. It was a honed skill. But now all of that is pretty much gone and that wouldn't be the worst thing ever if it was replaced with something, but it kind of just isn't, resulting in the game feeling like it basically doesn't see the homing attack as an extension of your moves that come sin handy when asked, but rather something that happens in reaction to the player pressing the button when the game tells em to.

    I guess to me its kind of like asking how is the player supposed to know how much on the analog stick they need to hold and how much of the jump button they need to hold to jump across a gap in a platformer. Getting a feel for that so you can apply it consistently is kind of the whole gist of these action games, no? I certainly don't think BotW for example would be better if the game flashed a "Press A" on screen when it was the perfect time to parry a Guardian laser, let alone paused all my other controls to make it the only thing I can do in that window of time, wouldn't you agree?

    I don't agree with this comparison at all. Especially since a reticle on screen with a prompt sound is far more intrusive and inorganic. The shadow isn't taking away the dimensions of your movements and control or reducing the interaction of properly jumping across the gap down to pressing the jump button when the game flashes said prompt.
    The player still has to actually successfully jump across the gap to see the drop shadow on the other side on the platform. Drop shadow instead act as a reassurance in an organic manner that the player has successfully gotten to the other side rather than a dumbing down of the act of actually timing and jumping across to the other side of the gap.
    The reticle would be more like if you walked up to the edge of the platform, and the entire act of jumping was reduced to pressing A once at the ledge and the game did the actual jumping in an inconsistent convenient manner while all you did was hold forward until the game flashed a prompt saying "let go of forward".
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2022
  10. qwertysonic

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    Iizuka has said several times that the theme of the story is mystery: not knowing what's going on. My theory is that that is why they've been so tight lipped about marketing this game. They haven't shown any of the story or any of the cyber-space boost levels, just Sonic wandering around ensuring the viewers also don't know what's going on.

    They're trying to make the game feel mysterious, but it's just coming off as bad marketing.
     
  11. I can agree with all of this except the very last paragraph. That again depends on the game and it's level design.

    Drop shadow is an organic way of letting you know you've jumped to the position needed to land on the platform.

    In cases where the homing attack actually involves timing (which isn't always the case, but when it is) the homing reticle is an (admittedly rather inorganic) way of letting you know you've reached the correct point midair to be able to perform the move.
     
  12. Usually when Sonic games are that long, its due to padding.
     
  13. ChaddyFantome

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    Its not comparable because the drop shadow appears at the end of the action as a confirmation of success. The homing attack reticle doesn't act as a confirmation. It just tells you when to perform the action.
    The depth in the drop shadow scenario is not touched because the drop shadow isn't telling you how the jump. The player still has to do that successfully to see the drop shadow on the other side.
    The homing attack, the reticle tells you when to do the move. See the difference? If I undershoot or overshoot a jump in a 3D platformer, the drop shadow doesn't change anything, it gives me information so I can make the adjustments necessary to perform the move correctly and consistently. The reticle doesn't give me information to adjust. It just tells me when to do the move and by design results in the game having to design itself around it appearing in a sterile consistent manner that is also inconsistent from an actual gameplay standpoint.
     
  14. LockOnTommy11

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    To be honest I have to disagree, I can only think of the Werehog stages as being real padding, that and Generations which had missions that were required to get keys to proceed too. Most other games have been pretty good at just furthering the story.

    I guess it depends on what you call padding. Would the various types of gameplay styles in, say, SA2, count?
     
  15. qwertysonic

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    No but the 5 missions/level definitely is. They aren't required, but like who didn't want to play green hill zone back in the day? Also I would consider most of the short acts in Sonic Colors to be padding. Sonic Heroes had 4 stories that were all basically the same levels. It and StH also had missions that were padding.
     
  16. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    According to HowLongToBeat, Sonic Adventure 1 takes around 9 hours to beat the main story. SA2 takes about the same, and Unleashed takes 13, and that's with all of the padding Unleashed has (all the hub areas and medal hunting).

    If Frontiers takes 20, that does not sound good.
     
  17. MH MD

    MH MD

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    i mean they do
    having to complete every campaign in SA1 to fight the final boss
    essentially repeating the game 4 times in Heroes to fight the final boss, that's padding
    having to go through the game 10 times in Shadow the Hedgehog to finish the game, although you can play different stages, except the first one

    those are all form of padding, Generations doesn't compare, it's fast-paced game and only requires trying little challenges, not even all of them

    So yeah...normally i don't take "long playtime" as a good thing
    However, due to the nature of this game, main story should be short if you want, it can also take long if you want, that's just the nature of open world zones games, and with the confirmation that you can take double the amount of playtime to see everything, in theory it shouldn't be padded, would be good way to make the game longer
     
  18. qwertysonic

    qwertysonic

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    Long playtime can only be a good thing. If I'm spending $60 for a game I better get a lot of playtime out of it. If I only get 10 hours of playtime out of it, that's $6/hour. Compare that to a 60-hour RPG and Sonic games are really expensive entertainment. I know Sonic games are designed for replay-ability but honestly I haven't regularly replayed a Sonic game since, like, Heroes. Even Mania and Generations I've only replayed once or maybe twice.
     
  19. SystemsReady

    SystemsReady

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    re: the context of Crash, you don't realize how much you need his shadow to navigate those games' platforming until you hit Crash 3 and they gave him an actual shadow instead of "that damn discus"* and you have a harder time picking it out among the platform textures :oldbie: Tbh I thought that was intended, not an exploit or similar. Using cues is part of gameplay - I use the sounds of his jumps in those games to help me time too as Crash 1 in particular has a lot of sections where there's a rhythm you can establish if you know the levels well enough.



    * Apparently Crash getting a proper shadow in Crash 3 was a mandate from someone at Sony who hated his generic "discus" shadow in the last two games!
     
  20. Starduster

    Starduster

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    I'd argue this is a damaging stance to take on games and encourages the kind of padding people are railing against here. I'd much rather have a tight, focused experience that keeps me coming back through mechanical depth and a variety of options. Something like Fire Emblem has huge replayability despite being a story-driven SRPG because of its wealth of characters, class options and growth outcomes that facilitate a variety of themed playthroughs or challenge runs. So despite the fact that every time you play Fire Emblem Awakening, you're playing the same 20ish maps, you have the ability to ensure that you never play them the same way. Depending on how Frontiers' skill tree works, it could offer similarly variety-driven replayability. At any rate, I hope it's more killer, less filler.