Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by MykonosFan, May 27, 2021.
Sonic 2 has a casino, Sonic 3k has a carnival that looks like a casino, Sonic 1 has a proto-casino.
Sonic Advance 1 and Sonic Heroes also has a casino!
And they all manage to be visually distinct Zones with their own gimmicks and obstacles. What's your point?
I did say there was some theme reuse, but this isn't even a great example.
When you look at these stages, they each have different color schemes, enemies, and music in different styles/genres. Casino Night has pinball mechanics, Carnival Night has its own varied assortment of gimmicks and a whole "lights out" section.
Outside of the fact that they all have bumpers and two of them have the word "Night" in the name, the stages aren't very similar at all. I'd say Carnival Night has just as much in-common with Chemical Plant as it does to Casino Night, and no-one says those stages are similar.
Even when levels shared tangentially similar themes, there was still a lot of variety.
And we get new levels and looks in most of the new games. Sonic Unleased looked to use pretty much brand new looking throughout the entire game, ok Sonic Forces used Greenhill again, but that was really to drive the story and show what Eggman was going to the world., it too had a number of new stages that did not feature in early Sonic games.
I think stuff like R&C or Yakuza are far more guilty of re-using stuff, most Yakuza games are even paced the same and to give Sonic Forces a little more credit its looks to use brand new enemies designed, where many games like Mario reuse the same enemies that's been in the series since the 16 bit days
When I look at upcoming Sonic it looks to me to use ICO or SOTC look far more than any previous Sonic game.
So, the point I was trying to make was that the Sonic series set these expectations that not all other franchises have. In a 2D Mario game you expect to fight Goombas and Koopas because they're in every 2D Mario game. I don't play Yakuza, but I'm guessing it's the same thing. Sonic games taught people to expect new things not just every game, but every level.
People expect different things from different franchises because different franchises set different expections. Sonic set high expectations for stage variety and people feel like it's not meeting those expectations here lately.
Also: regarding your Unleashed comment, I agree it had good variety... but Unleashed is hardly a "new" game. It came out 14 years ago. I like Generations, but I think it's the start of these problems. Before it there was a lot more variety of stage theming from game-to-game.
I think it comes down to expectations and previous standards set. If a series is known to reuse enemies, locales and music, like Kirby or Mario or Yakuza, it's expected and it's often fine, even if things start feeling a bit stale like the endless stream of basically Kirby Super Star plus one gimmick we had with Kirby from the GBA up until Star Allies. Sonic always used new locales though, and new enemies, up until Colors, Sonic 4, and Generations. The excessive reuse has only been since like 2011, and it's still happening which is why I think some Sonic fans are starting to get annoyed.
EDIT: LOL wow someone ninja'd my exact point
Great minds think alike (and apparently post at the same time) LOL.
Sonic was always a pretty polarizing series tbh, especially after it went 3D the quality of the games started to fluctuate wildly.
So inevitably, that polarizing and extreme nature was gonna be reflected in the fanbase. Its like the Star Wars fandom tbh.
You have some fans who just hate anything outside of their specific niche and you have others who are a bit more open-minded.
I mean, 2010/2011 was a long time ago, at this point. Heavy reuse of enemies, locales, and music now has over a decade of precedent within Sonic (I emphasize heavy, because reuse in general for Sonic goes way back). That's about a third of the IP's lifespan.
Just like there was once a precedent set for slope physics in these games that's long been discarded. Expecting no significant reuse of locales or enemies in a Sonic game at this point is almost as unrealistic as people expecting Sonic to be able to roll down a hill. That's just not what these games are anymore. That said, Frontiers still does have new locales, enemies, and music, even with these Generations Special Stages, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
True, asset reuse goes all the way back to Sonic 1.
This basement level looks awful familiar, doesn't it
What you say is true, but I was answering the question "why are these things expected of Sonic when they're not expected from other franchises?" the precedent set by those original games is the reason why people have these expectations to this day.
You STILL find people grumbling every time there's no slope physics. It's due to precedent.
I'm not saying what is or isn't reasonable to expect in the upcoming Sonic games based on current patterns. I'm describing the reason why people have the expectations that they do, reasonable or not.
Alright, I've said my piece. Back to lurking.
You'll have to bare with my metaphor here but I think I can explain this. I love Family Guy. Seth Mcfarlane was my idol as a child. But I'd be lying if I said I think the show is what it used to be.
For years I've been saying season 12 is the worst season because it had some of the most antisocial storylines and character actions from the show. But I revisited last year after years of the show just being "alright" and I found myself liking it more even with it's flaws because it tonally and humorally closer to my favorite seasons (9 - 11) than the new ones (which again are fine but they aren't amazing).
That's the issue Sonic fans are facing. If SEGA had learned from their mistakes with 06 and kept making better games consistently you probably wouldn't have a renaissance of people who are saying the game was underrated and deserves more love than it's getting. It's just for a lot of them things have gotten MUCH worse and it makes it easier to look past 06's flaws.
You'd probably get people still saying it could have been an amazing game, heck I remember saying that all the way back in 2011 that I loved the level design and feel the game could have been fantastic if they had been able to finish it, but I also didn't forget the last part. It wasn't finished.
It wasn't really all that great as a result but people are willing to ignore every single "IT'S NO USE!" death or clipping through levels, or Silver moving numbered balls momemt because it's still closer to what they wish Sonic Team was making than what we're getting so you have a lot of people saying they LOVE it when that wouldn't be the case if 06 had just been the one low point and we never dove that low again.
This happens with almost every major franchise when it has a super controversial installment, it makes people go back and look at the older ones and appreciate them more. That just happens way more often with Sonic than any other franchise.
So what you're saying Sonic should have just stayed in the 90's since they set the bar far too high, and far too early and will never be able to measure up
okay but like, SA2 reused its themes throughout the game like crazy even, which was something that the classic games didn't really do outside of the obligatory Scrap Brain 3 and Final Zone. the themes from SA2 didn't even need to show up in another game to get reused in a way that Sky Sanctuary hasn't across like three games.
I wouldn't even say that the concept of "discovering a new place" was broken by replaying the same locales - you do that in S3&K, and more blatantly in SA1 - but SA2 was probably the first one I noticed reused aesthetics for "different" levels so blatantly. Mission Street is Radical Highway But Worse. Sand Ocean is a moodier Hidden Base. Lost Colony is a creepier Eternal Engine. Sky Rail is just Pumpkin Hill But Daytime. Egg Quarters is literally just Death Chamber.
These are all old sins, ones that I'm kind of scratching my head over because SA2 is 20 years old. Why on earth are we talking about this now of all times?
I considered what SA2 did as acts with different names "Act Hero" and "Act Dark", if you wish. It was obvious they were reused, but they weren't in the same story (may be there were exceptions, I don't remember everything).
You're in the fortunate position of being blissfully unaware of the Ratchet fanbase. There's a very loud portion of the fanbase that hasn't been happy with Ratchet since the PS4 entry and have decried it and aspects of the new PS5 entry. A lot is said, you just don't hear about it widely. I've done some video editing on largely viewed Ratchet & Clank retrospectives for YouTube, and some of the comments and sentiments from diehard fans on those are...familiar.
Honestly it is a very common constant with most any series you care to observe. Star Wars, Dragon Ball, Sonic, etc. - there will always be people upset that things aren't how they used to be in the good old days. Granted, the factors in these sentiments differ on a case-by-case basis and what I'm saying doesn't in any way diminish valid criticisms on real issues that can exist within newer entries in said properties, but I think in many cases it can be as simple as the founding fans being dissatisfied that the media may no longer align with their built up prejudices on what the property should be, leading to these vocal contingents.
I think it makes sense that asset reuse causes outcry within a given community and not outside of it. Fans are the only ones with enough immersion and time spent on a given property to be able to get tired of a series of models and textures. That's why the average newbie playing Elden Ring didn't laugh when they saw the Erdtree Avatar was the fifth copy of the first boss of Dark Souls 1 like fans did. They just got angry when the second half of the game spammed the fucker all over the place.
The difference, of course, being that Elden Ring has six previous games jam-packed with content, even unused content, to steal from (seven if you count the first boss of Demon's Souls being taken from Enchanted Arms) and Sonic for some reason is reticent to shake things up too much. SA2 was cited as a negative example earlier, but even setting a stage with the same assets at night was more than Forces was willing to push things.
The way I see it, their best course of action (if there's no original action stages, which I remain skeptical of) is either to make the most possible visual variety with the stages they've got (weather, time of day, even just recoloring textures or having you explore the stage upside down or something) or to just steal more stages. Seeing Unwiished's stages running in Gens/Unleashed HD with proper GI has convinced me that good lighting can make even a stage from a PS2 game look decent on modern systems with little remastering necessary, so if we use that as a baseline, there's still at least, like, seven games before Generations that they could steal shit from, and only two of them had stages appear in Generations.
Oh well. If they're reusing stages I just hope they reuse well designed stages that are fun and interesting even if they are old.
Who am I kidding, this is SEGA we're talking about, they're probably gonna be using modern planet wisp or sunset heights and other asinine levels like that lmao.
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