Those of us who have been Sonic fans from the very beginning have witnessed how idiotic the narrative has become in the fandom. The series started with groundbreaking design and style with mass appeal, and then slowly degraded over time. The solution used to seem rather apparent, just return to what made the series appealing from the beginning. However, each stage of degradation offered new half baked ideas which in effect picked up some fans and lost others. As a result, he fanbase has become very fractured, everyone thinks their era of gameplay is superior, or just needs a little work but is almost there, this is a hill they are willing to die on... Flop after flop, the standard for what was a good Sonic game became so low that even games which were only modestly successful in the marketplace became heralded as successes by some. The voices of us initial fans of the series have slowly been downed out by generation after generation of fanboys, to the extent that our sage and consistent observations as to where the series strayed is now apparently just another inconsistent opinion in the heap. "Sonic fans just don't know what they want" people say, "they are unappeasable", on the contrary, us old timers have been vividly clear what we want. The problem is that Sega is trying to please everyone, each new Sonic game now has some gimmick, bastardizes the history in one way or another, and can't even reliably execute a singular playstyle. Yet now another generation of people defend this, they claim Sonic Team is so close to a winning formula, despite mediocre sales, and an alienating playstyle that can't even stand on it's own for an entire game. Sonic should be a blockbuster series, selling 5 million copies is only an achievement if you internalize these low expectations or compare to the the MAJOR flops. Sonic should be selling in numbers with the likes of Mario, Zelda or Pokemon. Well, I am hopeful for the first time in nearly 2 decades, with Mania on the horizon. However, I still lack confidence in Sega, and feel 50/50 they will find a way to fuck that up. Please don't misinterpret me (as if right). I accept that 3D Sonic is here to stay, and I actually welcome that because there is room for both, just as with Mario, Zelda and Pokemon. BUT, I want Sega to develop a play style that doesn't alienate the majority of potential customers. Now before you shoot me on the street, I'm sorry, I understand that for some of you the boost style is nearly perfect, but it will never allow Sonic to reach his full potential in the marketplace. MOST PEOPLE SIMPLY CANNOT PLAY A GAME THIS FAST EVEN IF THEY WANT TO LIKE SONIC. It will never have sales like Mario or Zelda, which the Sonic IP is still actually capable of. Often companies will slowly decline, and it takes a maverick to take the seat, shake things up, and piss a few people off, because people don't like change. Look at us old timers, right? we don't like that Sonic changed either, so it's easy for people with differing opinions to just write us off too. But you know what, I got my Mania, all signs point to it being the success I always expected it would, and I'm hoping it's a renaissance. But I know Sonic probably needs a 3D counterpart too. I've never had as little skin the game as far as Modern is concerned, and what I see is that again we have another generation of fans that are saying everything is fine with modern Sonic while glaring problems abound. I've seen this song and dance before.
This. It feels like it's been designed by committee. Someone thought it would be wise to go back to Generations. But then someone else was worried about it being labelled Generations 2, so they created a new third play style and new levels. But then someone else was worried that it lacked nostalgia so they ended up using old level elements anyway. There seems to be no vision, and I wouldn't be surprised if they spent a good chunk of the last three years going back and forth over the design of the game rather than actually developing it.
Arguably Sonic Team is trying to return to a winning formula here: the Sonic Generations formula. And it's one that did sell better than usual for them, at least when it comes to modern Sonic. Though even when returning to a formula they can't seem to focus on making improvements to it. Besides improving the framerate, modern and classic in Forces look like they play just about the same they did in Generations, with no large improvements made. Meanwhile Sonic Team is adding another character/gameplay style to the game. And in reality, I don't imagine Forces will be the sales success Generations was. Despite featuring modern and classic Sonic again, it doesn't really appear to have much of that nostalgia that made Generations so appealing. Instead Mania is looking more likely to replicate that sales success. The game just has impressed a lot more people online already. Probably because instead of trying a bunch of new stuff and seeing what sticks, they are iterating on the best Sonic games. And not just that, but are making meaningful changes like the drop dash as well. And considering the Collector's Edition alone sold out in Europe before I could finish writing my article about it being released there, I'd say it's already a sales success. And that's what Sonic Team should be doing. Iterate on the modern Sonic gameplay style that started in Unleashed and try to make meaningful improvements to it instead of focusing on adding in additional gameplay styles. Make it less scripted and more player controlled. Make it so the player actually feels more like they're in control of Sonic instead of barely being able to control him at all. That kind of stuff. They have something with a huge amount of potential here and it's a real shame to see them not even try to reach that potential. And I wouldn't call it "nearly perfect", it is very far from it. But I think it already being fun to a lot of people despite being very far from ideal says a lot about the potential modern Sonic has.
That's the hilarious beauty of it. It had juuuuuust started to feel like the IP was finally leaving the s*** days behind. Perhaps only because Mania and Generations exist. Perhaps it's simply Mania, returning something clean and hopeful to the brand. Nevertheless, here we are. It's just a little surreal that here we literally are. The same level of facepalm that, for some reason, I thought we were past. It's lolz.
They've literally said this every time a new Sonic game is announced! These words mean nothing but marketing speak to me. I'm of the opinion that the boost formula will never appeal to a wide audience, unless it was heavily simplified and based on the player exploiting rolling physics to have fun.
I am not convinced that Forces is going the right direction either but I'm saving my judgement until there's more footage at E3. There will likely be a lot revealed about both Mania and Forces then and I think we all can make more informed judgements then. The boost formula proved popular enough that it has been in four games now, not counting handhelds. I think it has appeal to a wide audience otherwise they wouldn't keep bringing it back. At the same time the boost is a double-edged sword that has backed Sonic Team into the corner and Lost World was definitely not the way to get out. I like the Adventure style myself because it gave the player more control over Sonic and his speed, but I don't know if that is the answer either. Sega is understandably skittish as the last two games that used Adventure controls and style, 06 and Lost World, weren't well received. I also don't think going full on 2D like Mania is the answer in the long run either. Eventually, Sonic MUST have a 3D game that works.
I too preferred the Adventure style myself, and I think in terms of mass appeal and playability this is where the series needs to go. Boost in it's current form will never be accessible to the masses PERIOD. And the whole 3D/2D style reads as redundant and inauthentic when you have a standalone Classic branch. They should borrow the style and lore from Classic (to unify the universe and brand), the playstyle of Adventure (when Modern was it's most accessible), and the beauty and graphics of the Modern, then reduce the playable characters to simply Sonic and Tails/Knuckles so they aren't spreading development too thin as has happened time and again. SEGA, if you are listening, do this!
I think the trick to making the Adventure style work again is 1. make sure the programming isn't messed up (Sonic 06), and don't throw in crazy Mario gimmicks (Lost World) that dilute Sonic's abilities. Also, making Sonic's gameplay fully 3D again would help to separate the modern brand from the classic brand. The classic brand can represent to Sonic what Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends did for the Rayman franchise, and the modern games can tell great stories with engaging 3D gameplay. Sonic Adventure 2, despite uneven dialogue, probably has the best story of the franchise and marrying that to the witty banter of Sonic Colors would probably create something memorable. I think there's plenty of room for Sonic's expanded cast to be in the games if they are used right. Not just Tails or Knuckles, but Blaze & Shadow and maybe Rouge could have roles too. I won't even rule out Amy if they could find a way to actually make her fun to play (maybe make her playstyle Metroidvania and you can upgrade her hammer and such?). Like, I could see a pairing scenario for excellent 2P integration like the classic Genesis games or even some unique races in extra modes. Like, say... Sonic & Tails, Knuckles & Charmy, Blaze & Silver (his psychic powers would be able to fly them both), Shadow & Rouge, and Amy & Cream. For variety you can even mix up the order, put Blaze with Tails and Sonic with Rouge or whatnot. The trick would be to create an online mode and find a way to allow the 2P on each team to easily catch up to the 1P if they fall behind, much like Tails having to catch up to Sonic all the time in the classic Genesis games. You could get many, many hours running online races as your multiplayer mode. To say nothing of actually allowing meaningful Sonic & Tails gameplay for the first time since the classic Genesis games (yes, Tails followed Sonic around in Adventure but the camera made it borderline impossible for the 2P to do much of anything. Same with Shadow the Hedgehog having various characters follow you). Split-screen and/or online matchmaking is your friend, Sega.
While Adventure 1 is the best bash at 3D Sonic has had, I still think we could do much better than that.
So I guess this turned into another armchair game design thread? I don't see why modern Sonic in its current form can't be made more accessible. Like I said: the boost formula is very far from perfect, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved. I'm sure that if a good game studio tried that they could make modern Sonic easier and more fun to control. Though if we're merely talking about what would make Sonic sell well, accessibility =/= good sales. There's a whole incredibly successful genre about cars going fast while being difficult to control. Forza is an incredibly successful franchise, so is Gran Turismo, and those games are arguably harder to play than boost Sonic.
It was a good first attempt, admirable even, but it felt like too much of a prototype and was rough around the edges. I still remember playing that skyway part of Windy Valley (the looping rail in the sky) and getting caught in the scenery - SA1 was great for the time but it wasn't polished at all, such is Sonic Team's modus operandi. SA2 perfected the engine but did away with the beautiful and fantastical worlds in favour of "American Sonic" which is often attributed to the development team being based in San Francisco and drawing inspiration from their place of work - but I honestly believe it to be a Sega mandate to revive the Dreamcast in the US. Just my own personal theory there. I think SA1 had the best zones and creative vision, but SA2 absolutely nailed the engine. The difference in gameplay is like night and day. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Mania explodes in sales (and it's trending towards doing so) and Forces limps to just over a million at best.
Oh definitely, you are right there. Even though the levels where linear I still felt some degree of freedom in moving Sonic that I don't really get from newer titles. Sadly I never got into SA2 because at the time, the move of Sonic into the real world was just a step to far for me. I suppose that was the turning point of when new Sonic games stopped appealing to me really. @Timmit - I don't get the sarcasm because you literally just repeated what we have been saying in the last few pages
The issue with Boost Sonic as I see it, is that it's just too fast. If you slowed Sonic down the control issues would be much easier to resolve, and there would not need to be as many scripted areas either. Then, more platforming sections could be incorporated and handled with more control. I recall Sonic Team saying that when Sonic was originally conceived, on the Genesis, he actually moved too fast and they had to slow him down. Back then they had the sense to understand that even though Sonic's gimmick is speed, if they made him too fast it would detract from the experience.
Is the issue that Sonic is too fast, or is the issue that you're not in enough control of him? Cause if it's the latter, then slowing him down could be one way to maybe help make him more controllable, but it's not like it'd be the only way. And it's not like just slowing him down would make him control well. Even in the rare slower platforming sections, modern Sonic doesn't control all that well in Generations. Sonic's speed isn't necessarily the cause behind why the player doesn't have enough control over Sonic. I find it hard to describe, but it just generally doesn't feel precise enough.
Sonic's controls haven't felt very precise since SA2, in my opinion. Starting with Heroes he just started to feel slippery as shit and they never really fixed it.
I don't know. Basically I just feel like I drunkenly flying down a hallway on a pair of jet-powered rollerblades, running against the walls back and forth, only half in control. It's just a very beautiful superficial experience.
Haha yeah. There's a real sense of a loss of control, and not in a good way, there's just too much shit going on. It was really funny watching one of my non Sonic fan friends play Generations - 'why do I need to fucking slide for!' 'look (holding out the controller) it's fucking playing itself!' I didn't even really take notice of such things until he put it so bluntly :v:
The problem with boost is that you can just run through the entire level. Boost, jump, homing attack. Level complete. Unleashed mixed it up with QTE and the bumper shifts.
I don't get how you could "fix" the boost honestly. Changing any minute detail could really screw with the core concept, which would kill everything about the formula that makes it fun to begin with. You improve control so that you can actually move Sonic around and stuff like drifting and quick stepping become obsolete, but that messes with the vast majority of 3D gameplay. So now you make the whole thing 3D, but then the reaction heavy gameplay and "platforming" of the 2D segments are stripped away. Stuff like the stomp, wall jumping, and the slide only ever actually come into play in these areas, because they rarely ever work well anywhere else. So you give the player more control by having less automation and making levels more open, but then you lose the thrill and spectacle the game. All that flash is really what makes this system come together. So you remove all of that and what are you left with? A game where you run around really fast, ramming into enemies to keep going fast, and occasionally do the most bare bones jump and run puzzles held together by homing attack chains and springs. Maybe I'm being short sided, but I don't get what there is to improve here.
It's not like I fully worked out how to improve the formula, though I don't think changes that would make certain elements unnecessary are necessarily bad. But also we're not supposed to, we're not the ones designing Sonic. We're just some armchair game designers with zero experience actually developing a boost Sonic game. :v: Just because you don't know how to improve on a game doesn't mean it can't be improved. You could ask me how to improve on a game I'm not that into like, say, Dark Souls, and I wouldn't have a clue. That doesn't mean Dark Souls can't be turned into something I do like. In fact, they did that already with Bloodborne. Turns out a change of aesthetic and changing the combat to be more fast paced and focused on dodging got me way more into the game. And I couldn't have come up with that. Probably cause I've never designed a game like Dark Souls. Probably cause I wasn't that into the way Dark Souls plays to begin with. Probably cause it's not my job to design something like Bloodborne.
