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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Covarr

    Covarr

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    When I think of boost gameplay, all I can think of is how much variance there is between levels in terms of openness. At the most linear end, you have levels like Generations GHZ, with a bit of vertical path splitting, but not very much, and that's about it. But on the other end, there's excellent levels like Sky Sanctuary Zone, with branches both small and large, horizontal and vertical, with difficult-but-fast upper routes that fall back to easier-but-slower lower routes if you fuck up... It's not strictly "open" as such, but does showcase a lot of what was great about Sonic 2's level design (and to a lesser extent, Sonic 3, but that mostly had large branches that didn't fall to each other). Heck, there were even plenty of spaces that did slow Sonic down and give him some room to do a bit of more open platforming. Not a ton, but they were there, unless you know the level well enough to speedrun your way past them, but that applies as much to Adventure.

    Sure, it's not strictly "open", the way Adventure was, no wide spaces for you to swerve around in circles, but I don't think the boost formula is necessarily as linear as is often suggested either. Those slower segments of Sky Sanctuary prove that this style of gameplay can definitely handle being slowed down and opened up a bit, it's just that the level design generally doesn't bother with that. I truly think the problem here is the level design, not the mechanics. There are a lot of hyper-linear levels that pretty much amount to just holding boost and dodging a few obstacles, even for beginner players, but when the levels are as well-built as Sky Sanctuary, the style really shines.
     
  2. VectorCNC

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    Ok, Coke and ginger ale, then. Or Coke and water, whatever. The point is Modern Sonic gameplay is going to garner more negative discussion collectively across the planet because it objectively has major flaws. You can't dismiss the constant discussion and criticism modern has received over the past 2 decades by simply pointing to the venue as the source of discussion.

    Life and death are 2 different things, but we can't therefore deny a clear preference for one over the other.

    This is one of the problems with trying to have coherent arguments over the internet. You have to break down peoples arguments to analyze the faulty reasoning, but then they shift around, or blame the analogy because it doesn't perfectly reflect the subject matter 1 to 1. At the end of the day, High Fidelity was right, boost gameplay gets so much discussion because its just not good enough. Sales figures back this up.
     
  3. Dark Sonic

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    I'd say it has more to do with running the brand into the ground and the gameplay being more of a niche than anything. By the time Unleashed came around no one even knew wtf Sonic was anymore so why would they buy the games, gameplay be damned.

    It's not the most accessible gameplay though I'll give it that.
     
  4. Sean Evans

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    You say that, but that will immediately remove everything about the boost gameplay that makes it fun to begin with. Note that in Sky Sanctuary Modern, there's a lot of standard boring platforming, and a ton of 2D to make up for the lack of solid 3D mechanics and gameplay. The level has to do this balancing act of being slow and fast that works well enough, but just makes designing the actual levels MORE strenuous. And even then, the level only last about 2 to 3 minutes. This is undoubtedly an issue with the game's mechanics, because good level design relies on solid mechanics. You can't have Megaman X's levels without it's wall jumping, and dashing. The reason they never opt to make the level bigger is because it wouldn't do anything to help spice up the game.

    There's a bit in SS Modern, at the start of the level, where you come to the fountain. There's an extra life hidden in the back. You can only ever know it's there by taking a specific path. But even then you don't collect it by going on said path. You have to stop, go back, and find it. A simple task made far more tedious due to the lack of camera control and wonky movement physics. "Open" levels will not fix a lot of the boost issues. If anything it accentuates them. What's even more is that the gameplay style is only popular to begin with, because it's really fast and flashy. Remove the flash and slow it down and you've pretty much made it less interesting as a result. People here may legitimately enjoy the boost gameplay, but to anyone who hasn't touched a Sonic game in a while, they'll only ever play it because it complies with Sega pushing the series speed.
     
  5. DigitalDuck

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    By that reasoning, Sonic 4 is better than Sonic 3. After all, it sold more, and has higher critic scores too; plus we discuss Sonic 3's gameplay more often than Sonic 4's. Sonic Generations also sold better and has higher critic scores.

    Things that are "not good enough" don't get much discussion. How much discussion does Shadow the Hedgehog get? Basically zero. Because it's shit.

    The "constant discussion and criticism ""modern Sonic"" has received" has been largely due to the Adventure games, the aforementioned Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic '06; the modern Boost-style games are almost universally heralded as good-to-great games (Unleashed unfortunately gets a bad rep, but that's because "LOL WEREHOG"), and aren't lauded nearly as much, except by purists who say #NotMyHedgehog at everything that isn't identical to the classic games.

    This is the problem with trying to have coherent arguments over the internet. You think your opinion is fact. It isn't.
     
  6. Mr Lange

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  7. VectorCNC

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    We can argue semantics or use anecdotal evidence, but if you look at the larger picture it's clear, isn't it. You deny climate change too?
     
  8. DigitalDuck

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    No?

    Who is arguing semantics? And isn't anecdotal evidence the basis of your argument in the first place? That Boost gameplay seems to get more discussion than Classic gameplay?

    What the fuck are you on?
     
  9. Atendega

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    Killer argument there, dude. I liked how you intelligently rebutted the opposing points, instead of just chucking an empty insult at the opposition.

    Oh wait.

    In all seriousness, I think DigitalDuck is right on the money, here. Critically and just in general, the Boost games have been well-received. Even Unleashed was widely praised for its day gameplay. Nobody denies it has its issues, but it certainly doesn't "objectively have major flaws", and it certainly doesn't have nearly as many problems as some of the older 3D games had (much as I might adore them).
     
  10. Dark Sonic

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    It's also might be worth noting that the early 3D games that people hold dearly in their hearts get worse and worse scores each time they're re-released. Now whether it's mostly because of shoddy port craftsmanship (SADX rererelease comes to mind) I don't know, but at least part of it is just because those games don't hold up as well as we like to think they do.
     
  11. VectorCNC

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    First, obviously I cannot elaborate on every single nuance or I would be writing a textbook, but we need to approach this with an open mind and examine the larger picture.
    So, I don't know where you got your numbers on Sonic 4 sales (as I couldn't find them), but keep in mind the accessibility of video games is very different today than it was in the 90s. Sales is obviously not the only factor. Also Sonic 4 was WAY cheaper to purchase than when Sonic 3 was retail. As for the reviews, a glance at Metacritic shows Sonic 3 to have MUCH better reviews than Sonic 4…
    Shadow used to get a lot of discussion actually, but Sega learned their lesson and didn't follow up with another unpopular game. If Sega continued making Shadow games for 2 decades, and they continued to underwhelm audiences then we probably would continue to see a lot of discussion about how it's a flawed game, just as we see with modern Sonic, right?
    This is incredibly biased, and you point at everything except for what you personally like. We are talking about Sega's inability to produce a modern Sonic game for the masses. If 10% of the audience gives a game a score of 100%, this doesn't change the fact that 90% of the audience did not enjoy the experience. It doesn't matter to Sega that 10% loved the game unless that 10% goes out and buys 10 copies of the game each. Sega is a business and they need to sell copies. The modern style of play is too difficult to succeed with, so we get spin offs like Shadow. Games take too long and too much resources to make, you get Sonic 2006. This requires padding which subtracts from a core experience, and the response is LOL WEREHOG. The modern games are too fast for most people to enjoy. You have a 2 decade long fall from grace and the response is #NotMyHedgehog. I understand that YOU and some others enjoy modern Sonic, but the facts are the facts. Would you seriously put your money where your mouth is? You will be broke.
    I'm talking larger trends here. I'm indifferent to this excuse or that excuse, blame the fans, blame the devs, blame the perception, blame the diehards. I'm blaming Sega.
    We can argue semantics or use anecdotal evidence, but if you look at the larger picture it's clear, isn't it. You deny climate change too, right? That would also involve denying a massive amount of evidence to the contrary.

    Dr;tl:

    At the end of the day the modern series has been in a continuous decline, and some people refuse to accept why it's happening.
     
  12. Sean Evans

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    That's just it though. The boost is arguably the best 3D gameplay style the series has ever had, and that is really disappointing. Not because it's "bad", but because it's shallow and simplistic. It's far too dangerous to rely solely on the style alone because it requires a ton of development resources. It has so many loose ends and tacked on fluff like characters and concepts that it doesn't know what to do with. It's overly complicated to anyone outside of the series, and uninteresting to many inside of fanbase. It's not intelligent or creative enough to compete with Mario, but it's also not polished and pretty enough to compete with games like Ratchet and Clank. It's just sort of stuck in it's humble niche, and it's happy being there purely because it's previous attempts have been mediocre.
     
  13. Mastered Realm

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    Sonic Lost World was the first 'low' since Sonic 06, so yeah, I think you're just being biased :D.
     
  14. VectorCNC

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    Curse of low expectations...

    EDIT:

    Sorry, I'm getting frustrated, what I should have said was... The series as a whole has declined and this began with "modern Sonic". There have been better games and worse games over the decades as Sega has attempted to find their footing. They appear to have settled on the 1/2 "Boost" formula. While some games are of better quality, the bar is set pretty low, hence why I said the "curse of low expectations". Even a well fleshed out Boost Sonic game suffers from many issues. The alienation of a huge swath of available consumers being the most apparent. My bias is that I think Sonic has amazing potential, but this cannot be realized with the Boost formula. I mean if it was such a formula for success then why the need to pad each game?
     
  15. DigitalDuck

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    It depends on which version you look at:

    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I Wii - 81
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I PS3 - 74
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I X360 - 72
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode 1 iOS - 70
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode II iOS - 66
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode II PS3 - 63
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode II X360 - 61
    Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode II PC - 54

    Sonic the Hedgehog 3 X360 - 79
    Sonic & Knuckles X360 - 69
    (scores for the original versions are unavailable)

    It's safe to say that these are roughly in the same range. Sonic 3 (or Sonic the Hedgehog 3: Episode I) falls within the range of scores given for Sonic 4: Episode I. Sonic & Knuckles (or Sonic the Hedgehog 3: Episode II) falls within the range of scores given for Sonic 4: Episode II.

    We'd both agree this is unjust, rating Sonic 3 on the same scale as Sonic 4, and underneath the three "greatest" (by Metacritic scores) Sonic games of Sonic CD iOS, Sonic Adventure 2 DC, and Sonic & SEGA All-Stars Racing iOS. But it would suggest that there's certainly an audience for these games.

    Also compare with, say...

    Sonic Colours Wii - 78
    Sonic Generations X360 - 77

    And more importantly than critic scores, user scores for both the Classic games and the Boost games are all in the 8-9 range. So, er...

    Did it? I remember a few "oh god he's got a gun" and then it was quickly ignored after release.

    SEGA didn't continue making Classic games for two decades either. Maybe that's why we don't see discussion about it.

    Also you keep saying "two decades" but SEGA haven't been making any Sonic playstyle for even remotely close to that long. They did the Classic style for four years, the Adventure style for eight years, the Boost style for five years, and then some weird shit since then.

    I'm pointing at the stuff that's not generally well-received.

    10% of what audience? Classic Sonic and Modern Sonic are two different styles. I bet not even 10% of Gran Turismo fans like Call of Duty, and yet Call of Duty sells millions.

    SEGA are also unable to produce a classic Sonic game for the masses, and I very much doubt even Mania will be that, as much of a shame as that will be. Every single argument you make also applies to Classic Sonic.

    The classic games are too complex for most people to understand. See, I can make baseless statements too.

    A two decade long fall from grace? It's been a one-decade fall, a half-decade revival, and then some faffing about behind the couch for a bit while they try to figure out what's happening.

    Except it hasn't.
     
  16. VectorCNC

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  17. Dark Sonic

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    Hold the fort. Not quite a fair comparison as Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles' reviews are for shoddy emulation of two (at the time) 16 year old games, while Sonic 4's were new at the time, and of course new is better :specialed:

    I still don't understand why Ep 2 scored worse, it was a much more solid product IMO.
     
  18. VectorCNC

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    Sonic 4 also released on a multiple platforms, including cell phones which everyone and their grandmother own, whereas Sonic 3 arrived on 1.
     
  19. Overlord

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    Sonic 3
    Code (Text):
    1. Computer and Video Games    94  ?148, p34/35/36[3]
    2. Electronic Gaming Monthly   95  
    3. GamePro             95  ?56, p42-44[1]
    4. gamesmaster             87  ?15, p32/33/34
    5. highscore           100    
    6. Sega Mega Drive Advanced Gaming 92  ?20, p50-53
    7. mega                90  ?18, p28/29
    8. Mega Action             93  ?11, p14/15/16/17
    9. MegaTech            93  ?27, p76/77/78/79
    10. Mean Machines Sega      94  ?17
    11. segamaguk           95  Feb. 1994
    12. Sega Power          90  March 1994
    13. hyper               90  March 1994
    14. pu              93  
    15. pp              81  
    16. gameplayers             92  
    17. Sega Pro            87  #30 Pg 40/41/42/43
    18. stc                     ?19, p10/11
    19. VideoGames & Computer       90  
    Sonic & Knuckles
    Code (Text):
    1. Computer and Video Games    91  ?156
    2. Electronic Gaming Monthly   100     ?65, p34
    3. Electronic Gaming Monthly   90  
    4. Electronic Gaming Monthly   90  
    5. Electronic Gaming Monthly   90  
    6. gamefan             91  
    7. GamePro             100     ?64
    8. gameplayers             95  
    9. gamesmaster             90  ?22, p36/37/38
    10. gamesworld          83  ?7, p14
    11. mega                92  ?26, p12/13/14/15/16/17
    12. smz                 85  ?44
    13. segamaguk           92  80/81
    14. Sega Power          90  Nov. 1994
    15. Sega Pro            90  #38 Pg 46/47
    16. stc                 91  ?43, p10
    17. stc_1               87  ?83, p11
    18. VideoGames & Computer       90

    At least use data for the actual games when they were new rather than emulated re-releases. =P
     
  20. DigitalDuck

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    As I said:

    Metacritic explicitly was being used as the example, and it doesn't provide scores for the original versions. But it's good to have the full scores.

    It was a throwaway remark anyway, as Sonic 4 isn't a Boost game; the discussion is about Classic Sonic games (S1-S3K including or not including Sonic CD) and Boost Sonic games (Unleashed-Generations).

    In either case:

    Except that I've shown my case with figures. Both sets of games receive roughly the same reception among modern audiences; they just happen to be different audiences.

    Meanwhile, you ignore most of what I say, strawman what little you respond to, and then resort to ad hominem attacks. Grow up.

    It's great if you love stopping every five seconds to do a tag move.