don't click here

Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    14,250
    1,332
    93
    Working on my art!
    I don't think anyone expected this combination again but at the time I was thinking they'd split the franchise into modern and classic subseries... then we got lost world and boom, and then this. But we have Mania so if that's successful we should see that kind of game again.
     
  2. rebelcheese

    rebelcheese

    Member
    174
    0
    16
    The music in those games ARE excellent. So is the music in Lost World. All I'm saying is that they have become increasingly, and gradually, derivative of the Mario series and that shows in the Classic Sonic music in the new GHZ. It brings to mind Mario music if played through the Genesis sound chips. But Lost World's music, despite it being excellent, really does rip off the Mario "sound" in a lot of ways to me (along with Lost World ripping off Super Mario Galaxy in the gameplay as well).

    Sonic's music, to me, has a different feel to it, more aggressive and experimental, than Mario. Sonic's music brings funk, rock, trip-hop, techno, you name it, and often genre-busts in the process. Compare classic tunes like "Ice Cap" and "Chemical Plant" to Mario classics and you'll know what I mean. Tee Lopes is an ideal composer for Sonic in my mind, because he will combine elements from many genres and all kinds of instruments and bring them together in a cohesive whole.

    It feels like, as Sonic Team has been getting risk-averse, they've been playing it safer and safer with each game soundtrack, and each time they creep closer and closer to evoking Mario instead of Sonic.

    But again, that's just me.


    I think this is another indicator of Sonic Team getting risk-averse. They took a major chance with up-ending the core gameplay with Lost World and it didn't work out, so they're returning to the Generations model in response to try to make fans happier.

    Sonic Mania needs to be a good game first before Sega will assign Taxman and company development with anything else. I think Taxman and Headcannon have what it takes to give us an amazing Sonic experience, but then the question becomes, especially if Forces isn't well-received, where does Sonic go from here? And what happens to Sonic Team?
     
  3. Deef

    Deef

    Member
    696
    0
    16
    My take on it has always been that the modern Sonic gameplay style is so patronising that I can't play it without feeling like I'm meant to be getting stupider, and that the classic Sonic gameplay in Generations was just woeful in how much it missed the mark, and I just keep hoping they don't start to believe that's what classic Sonic gameplay actually is.

    So yeah, I'd rather not have that combination back. Modern gameplay can go do what it likes without dragging classic gameplay down with it to keep up with the game's need to excite the player. Classic gameplay can stay away from modern games so the focus is actually genuine, real, legitimate focus on actual classic play and control and design. Not just some really well presented, really poorly executed excuse to put a bullet point on the back of the box as seen in Generations.
     
  4. RikohZX

    RikohZX

    Member
    877
    220
    43
    Perhaps with more of the orchestral themes, like Wonder World, and Lost World was a bit derivative in many ways compared to the norm for Sonic, but honestly, this new song is like I said - something out of Runners, which honestly felt like it was going for more of an anime style. Go look up Runners' OST and you'll see exactly what I mean, the new GHZ theme even sounds like they basically 8-bitified one of those songs. The songs are too fast-paced and different in style from anything Mario had, even the Yoko Shimomura-composed Mario & Luigi RPG games, but they're also pretty distinct from the pre-Lost World songs.
     
  5. I thought Generations purpose was to re-introduce Classic, then modern would be phased out from then on.

    If only ;)
     
  6. Atendega

    Atendega

    Lesser Sea Sponge Member
    577
    0
    0
    Comfy couch
    Collecting insults
    [​IMG]

    Are you trying to tell me that you'd rather have mini Sanic than this sexy piece of hedgehog right here
     
  7. hahaha can't argue with that :v:
     
  8. XCubed

    XCubed

    Will Someday Own a Rent-A-Center Oldbie
    EXACTLY. This was not simplified 8-bit music. They continuously pushed the limits of the hardware for the best possible sound.
     
  9. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

    A wise guy eh. I know how to DEAL with wise guys. Member
    1,286
    11
    18
    The Land of Waldos
    Sonic Utopia, Sonic Overture
    Sonic was very much a product of 80s and 90s culture and the schools of art and design that was prevalent in popular media (with some 60s and 70s in Sonic's earlier days). This is something they do not seem to be remotely aware of, and continue to demonstrate this very superficial view of classic Sonic as something "video gamey" and "pixels" and nothing else. It is a similar problem to the faux "retro" theme (seen often in indie games) that fails to understand actual retro games. "Old games were like, pixels and beep boops or something?" They seem to be seeing classic Sonic the same way. Every time they portray classic Sonic, it shows a gross misunderstanding of it. Sonic being silent just because he wasn't audible in the classic games (yet classic Tails and Eggman talk for some reason, and Sonic had a voice in Sonic CD and canonically did talk back then). The clash of art styles such as trying to make Green Hill "realistic" or going too far in the other direction with very tacky and plastic looking art. The music being obnoxious melodies and cheap synths (because uh beep boops or whatever that's how old games were right) or misfit sounds and tube filtering stapled on the original renders (about analogous to how they work with classic Sonic overall) showing an inability to conceive or recreate the media. And that's not even going into the gameplay, which the latest footage should speak for itself. It too shows an equivalent lack of understanding of classic Sonic. They have practically hung classic Sonic's carcass on display, joyless and lifeless, with some glitter and glue smattered on it in an attempt to make it palatable. Classic Sonic had strength because of how superbly it was handled in the 90s. Abusing the brand bluntly and carelessly because it's powerful does not inject strength into the franchise, it just saps the brand of its strength.

    The music, like the graphics, back then were attempting to adapt media to the best possible extent within the limitations of the hardware. They were not cheap synths and pixels just for the sake of being cheap synths and pixels. Sonic's music was based heavily in popular music of the era. Sonic CD went all out because the barriers were removed. And even so, it would be fine to go for old FM synth for the sake of faithfulness, so long as it's coming from the same place; adapting music and sound into it, and is not just being an FM synth for the sake of being an FM synth. It takes understanding of the concept you're working with and its media.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfBbCKRScaQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0FKzPfsxA4
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZWgbF-u9nk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_zteR99rko
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwcLpHx-ktM

    That is what sets this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5sGV7Jw2s8

    apart from this.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALGauhPcA3g
     
  10. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,162
    213
    43
    US
    I couldn't make that trade fast enough.
    [​IMG]
     
  11. VectorCNC

    VectorCNC

    Member
    591
    33
    28
    CNC Sculpture/Artwork
    2 brilliant posts in a row. What is so difficult to understand about this? I feel like god damn John Nada (gross) for christ's sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI8AMRbqY6w
     
  12. Amnimator

    Amnimator

    Member
    224
    0
    16
    As for Classic Sonic being in Sonic Forces, I'm sure everyone had their fill stating why it's a bad idea, but really it's not spreading themselves thin. The boost gameplay style level design wise tends to devolve into a completely linear 2D path with a different camera angle when you really start designing a 2-3 minute stage. Think about it this way, boost stages are typically several miles long and the player's expectation is to have a 2-3 minute level all in 3D with alternate paths and what not. It's just not feasible, even if we were to ignore the fact that the boost gameplay magnetizes you back to a spline pointing towards the main path and the player physics making intricate navigation a dream. Then we take into account the amount of art assets it would take to build such a thing, assuming the level designers haven't died yet.
    The alternative is shoving a 2D mode in, and that's exactly what they did in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations. Heck, each game is at least 60% 2D; Colors and Generations were looking at around 80%. It's easier when it comes to optimization, level design, as well as creating the art for it. Even when the game is in 3D you can see massive work arounds and it's clear that they want to lower the amount of time spent on 3D as much as possible. Whether that's good for the consumer? Your call.
    In short, the boost games are very expensive to make. Classic Sonic and the third gameplay style likely isn't spreading themselves thin, rather I think it's an attempt to lower their work load.
    I also think it's common knowledge here that an intricate 3rd person Sonic with plenty of polish would take much more time than a 80% 2D Sonic game with some 3D sections thrown in. It's kind of sad because I wanted to see them actually flesh out the boost gameplay, as much as I dislike it.

    Yeah, exactly. I noticed I usually dislike a lot of indie games not because they are low budget, not because it's indie, but because the game simply doesn't hold up on its own. Too many indie games are just bad imitations of old Nintendo-SEGA era classics and don't really hold value past that, and that's a territory SEGA really shouldn't want to be associated with.
     
  13. Sean Evans

    Sean Evans

    Professional Dork Member
    254
    0
    16
    Earth
    Sonic Overture, Sonic Utopia
    It wouldn't be if they developed a more stable and liberating gameplay style. Everyone else took into consideration the hefty amount of work that would go into creating a lot of content just for a single game, even Sonic Team back then. But the modern devs just kind of hope that people are okay with a good enough game that's short and simple.

    I have no doubts that given a more creatively enriching concept for the series Sonic Team could pump out a really solid, well paced, and decently sized game. They aren't absolute morons, they have a really keen sense of imagination, it's just that it gets thrown in all the worst fuckin areas. Sonic and the Knights of the Round? Really?
     
  14. Beltway

    Beltway

    The most grateful Sonic fan of all time this week Member
    1,588
    128
    43
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    Artwork and classes
    I don't really agree on the notion that adding 2D gameplay, let alone carving up the game into multiple playstyles, is a necessary weasel for Forces / the boost gameplay for a few reasons.

    1. Compared to the previous Boost games, Forces was/is being developed at a time Sonic Team arguably had/has more resources --concerning development time and available staff at hand-- to work on the game.

    Unleashed, Colors, and Generations were all developed with roughly two-three years of development time, and they were all released within a pretty close schedule between each other. Unleashed was released in 2008, Colors came out two years later, and Generations went out the door barely a year after that. Moreover, they were all made when Sonic Team were still spreading themselves out on other projects--2007 had Secret Rings, 2008 also had Riders: Zero Gravity, 2009 saw Black Knight, and 2010 also Sonic Free Riders. If one wants, you can also throw in the Dimps games they've co-produced / overseen during that time too--the non-HD console versions of Unleashed, both episodes of Sonic 4, and the handheld versions of Colors and Generations.

    Forces has been in development for four years following Lost World's release, and outside of the Sonic Runners mobile game (that was only live for roughly a year), its been the only thing they've been working on since then. Dimps has not been announced to have been working on a different version for the game either; the Switch version of the game --based on the snippets of ND footage compared to the recent GHZ playthrough-- looks like a downgraded port of the existing PS4/XBO versions of the game, in compared to how recent Nintendo platforms have gotten multiplatform Sonic games. I'd argue with the larger amount of development time and staff at hand, I do think they probably could had made a game comprised of Boost levels, with at least double the amount of levels Unleashed or Generations had (referring to individual, fully-designed acts when I say this).

    2. Sonic Team has had at least three games to try retooling the boost gameplay into a more resource-friendly playstyle that doesn't demand so much speed than what they first started with Unleashed, but I don't think they have ever tried doing so in a meaningful manner. Colors was the only real attempt at taming down the boost gameplay, and it didn't get the honor of being the main focus of the game design. Generations had some retweaked controls and simplified QTE events, but it was mechanically a relapse to what Unleashed had started. Lost World threw the baby out of the bathwater entirely for something new. And while we still have yet to see more of the game, I don't think what we've seen of Forces so far indicates the playstyle has been significantly altered.

    3. Lost World, despite being a new attempt at a new 3D gameplay style with slower-paced gameplay and less speed-oriented game mechanics, was still heavily comprised of 2D levels and segments. Similarly, Colors features a considerably pared-down variant of the boost game gameplay's framework, but 3D segments in that game --as previously mentioned-- clearly take a backseat in the game's design, which is more focused on 2D precision puzzle platforming and using Wisp powerups, which are the focus of the game's design. Conversely, while Unleashed had 2D segments for both the daytime and nighttime Werehog stages, they had considerably less prominence in the game design compared to the 2D segments in later games. I think each of these games, especially Lost World, makes it clear that the inclusion of 2D gameplay is being used more as a game design crutch / shortcut to making a fully-3D game (Boost or otherwise).
     
  15. AutiMatic

    AutiMatic

    Member
    5
    0
    0
    #SaturdayAMKillSession
    Exactly! Very great points being made. The conceptual approach to what Sonic is, needs to change. I love boost gameplay. It's a very thrilling experience when you're speed running levels. People that haven't played Sonic since the Adventure era have watched me play Unleashed day stages, or Modern Acts in Generations, and it's usually met with awe.

    "Wow! I didn't know Sonic was like this now."
    "He's so fast! Omg how can you play this so well!?"
    "This is very relaxing to watch, as you zoom through beautiful levels!"

    The response from a "casual" is usually a variation or combination of those 3 reactions. I love it, when I manage to make a great run without falling into a pit, getting hurt, or bumping into a wall or something, it makes for an aesthetically pleasing spectacle. The same sense can be obtained from a classic era game as well.

    With that said, I don't think the boost gameplay is "wrong". However, I do find it discouraging to casual players though, due to the expected reaction and anticipation needed from the player for input, to navigate and progress in accordance to devs intended design...it's jarring in regards to learning curves. At this stage in Sonic's 3D existence, he needs core gameplay at which to develop stages around. No shoehorned power ups, or plot gimmicks. The only answer I can see: momentum based physics that utilize topography.

    Don't forget: Modern Sonic didn't always have a "boost" skill. I thought Lost World was a poorly executed step in the right direction for developing Sonic gameplay.
     
  16. rebelcheese

    rebelcheese

    Member
    174
    0
    16
    I don't think Sonic Team wants to release a Sonic game that's "good enough" or "short and simple", otherwise they wouldn't keep tacking on arguably unnecessary gameplay elements to extend the game (Werehog in Unleashed, Classic Sonic in Sonic Generations and now Forces) or completely up-end the gameplay into something entirely new (Lost World).

    I think the boost is ultimately a double-edged sword for Sonic. The feeling of switching on the boost and flying through a stage is unparalleled, however, it means Sonic Team has to build massive levels that the player will still finish in less than five minutes if he knows what he's doing. The sad truth is without mechanisms to slow the player or the game down, Sonic games will be extremely short. This was acceptable back in the Genesis days, but it's been ingrained in people to expect more out of their games now. Which is why Sonic Team has always been trying to add more material to Sonic games so you don't beat them in one day.

    The Sonic Adventure style has its own share of flaws, and I think the relative failure of Lost World has scared Sonic Team off from trying to bring it or something like it back for a few more years. But I think the boost system is something that Sonic Team can't keep using and I think they know it, otherwise they wouldn't have tried a new game without it (Lost World). They need to find something more stable for the next game however, because the alternatives (four years of dev time or obvious stall tactics to pad the game) are not desirable.
     
  17. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Member
    14,250
    1,332
    93
    Working on my art!
    If they sold Sonic games for $30/$40, I would be totally happy with them being short. Give me Sonic Colors with 3 good acts per world instead of 6 with 3 good acts and 3 throw away ones. Give me Unleashed without the Werehog. I'll take Generations without those pointless side missions. Hell Sonic Heroes might have been fun if each level wasn't copy and pasted twice within the same level to add additional padding.

    Sonic games were always about replayability. Go back and improve your time, explore new routes, get all the emeralds, things like that. Sonic Team isn't all bad but they're definitely afraid of making a short game, so they add a bunch of nonsense and I'm sure they probably know it to an extent (Because I'm sure those levels in Sonic Colors that ended in 20 seconds were someone's crowning achievement :v:). Can't they just admit that, cut all the crap out, and release a cheaper game with the stuff people like in it? Besides, Sonic games usually end up costing $30 within like, 2 months. Why kid themselves?
     
  18. Tiller

    Tiller

    Member
    836
    0
    16
    HDK & World Runner
    You know what would help with game length instead of tacking on a bunch of other time wasting gameplay styles? If they had other characters playable in the boost style and designed the levels appropriately you could replay the levels with a difference experience. Also Chao.

    Crazy I know. :specialed:
     
  19. TheOcelot

    TheOcelot

    Scooty Puff Jr sucks! Member
    The boost gameplay is only suitable for Sonic (and Shadow I guess). You couldn't redesign the boost for other characters to suit their abilities without drastically changing it's philosophy because boost is a shallow gameplay style and it simply wouldn't work.

    Would be far better to redesign the gameplay style by removing the boost aspect completely for something more slower, more platformer-oriented like the Adventure gameplay. Then you can start adding other playable characters with their unique gameplay styles. Even then aside from Tails, Knuckles & Amy none of the other characters gameplay styles are worth bringing back.

    When are we gonna get a Chao garden mobile game XP
     
  20. Atendega

    Atendega

    Lesser Sea Sponge Member
    577
    0
    0
    Comfy couch
    Collecting insults
    :objection:

    Unleashed Day and Generations Modern are collectively orgasmic and I've clocked more time in Generations than any other game I've ever played. I think the boost style has plenty of depth, certainly enough to keep me replaying it over and over again.

    Boost wouldn't work for other characters simply because speed isn't their defining trait, not because it's a shallow gameplay style. A gameplay style doesn't have to be one size fits all to have depth.