Sonic Forces Thread

Basically this. There's momentum in Sonic games. Maybe not to the extent that the MD games do, but there's something called realism. When you run and then slow down, you don't slow down at the same rate you started running. There's friction. It's so cringy that it makes me wanna vomit. SEGA is trying to please the unpleasable, and it's leading to Sonic going down the drains. Unleashed and earlier titles weren't breathetaking, but they surely weren't a sagging pile of Nostalgia with clueless bullshit.

 

Honestly I would not be surprised if a big part of the development was spent on the new character. Especially if it's an OC creator.

 

I have no idea how stock havok works. 8 just don't recall that effect in generations. And I'm not saying it's Genesis physics just more accurate physics.

 

I'm more partial to the theory that Iizuka is insistent on his games being different; quality of craftsmanship and artistic merit be damned.

 

Classic City Escape even had the Skateboard item, which DID have rolling physics. Was it really hard to just apply that to rolling?

 

I've had more time to churn over the Classic Forces gameplay and am ready to make a judgment on what I see so far...

Now a modern iteration of Sonic is NEVER going to satisfy me in the same way that true Classic Sonic does. Therefore, I'm not looking to be blown away or hoping for some renaissance. As well, IF I buy this game is will be for the classic portion, because as stated previously, I have no desire to play racecar games. So with that out of the way, I am guardedly optimistic about the Classic gameplay for a few reasons.

OK, so the music is awful so far, but that's only because Sega doesn't understand that Classic Sonic content, even brand new Classic Sonic content, is inseparable from nostalgia. And they should understand this because they rely on it to their own benefit time and again. So they should know that any "classic style" music needs to be authentically classic sounding. You can't just pick any random synthesized effects, it needs to be reminiscent of the Mega Drive, or to quote our friend Holden, it sounds "phony".

BUT, this track might actually be a one-off and not be representative of the rest of the game. The music implies Sonic is frantically and suddenly moving from one place to another, so it's possible that this is the launch point for Classic Sonic's entry, and once he completes Green Hill he moves away from the "Classic Era" zones altogether and we don't have to hear anymore inauthentic-synth music.

THEN, the frantic music also implies that Classic Sonic is literally racing out of the zone as it transforms/destructs around him. So this could explain why the level is loaded with launch pads, and that aside from the occasional hiccup, or purple rock, they want to create a sense of just rushing out of the zone asap. The wave of fish at the end serve as a capstone, like a literal wave of destruction pushing Sonic out. After all it would honestly be hard to imagine that every single Classic Sonic Zone played just like this, it would get old extremely fast (of course this is Sonic Team so who really knows).

ANUS, now that I've got your attention, the level layout may serve its intended purpose perfectly. And when people criticize how flat it looks and how there is no interaction with the background elements, well... again, maybe it's not laziness but just their strategy for evoking a frantic rush feeling, and briefly constructing Classic Sonic's little square of reality. For all we know this is just a precursor to more fleshed out levels akin to what Classic Sonic had in Generations.

Furthermore, regarding the art direction. IMO it looks pretty good. And this is coming from a person who is extremely critical as Sonic's aesthetics, as some of you may know. It's not my ideal, but at least they are developing a somewhat signature look, and it's a decent blend of the aspects people preferred from previous iterations. I mean, I for one am as tired of #fuckGHZ as much as the next guy, but they are nailing it's modernized interpretation. And while they may be reusing assets, or whatever (I am no expert on this stuff), 99% of the intended audience won't notice at all. Green Hill is Green Hill... Besides that, it is unlikely this game will continue revisiting any further stages from Generations (but this is Sonic Team so who really knows...). So if you take this art style, apply it to a new zone, add a regular song that isn't poorly emulating the classics, and flesh out the levels further, then that sounds pretty damn good to me, at least as good as Generations if not better.

tl;dr: I'm making some assumptions here, but the music implies this zone is an outlier, not the norm, and with that in mind I think there is room for optimism, at least as far as the Classic portions are concerned.

Finally, If this game consist of a third play style, and they nail that, then overall this could be a very strong title. Imagine if the third portion is an adventure style, and Sonic Team had been dedicating so much time to that...

All I'm saying is things aren't all doom and gloom... not yet anyway...

 

^ Yeah, good points. I think there's no way they can really do difficulty progression if they do the same level design mentality with this stage without it being blatantly cheap. This doesn't look like the best first level, sure, but every Sonic game they basically want to drag new people in and make it more accessible. SEGA's noticed that themselves, that's why Sonic Boom exists. Whether Boom served its purpose or not is another point of discussion. It also doesn't help people who have just tried a Sonic game go, "Sonic's too hard to play, the game is too cheap, you can't even see what's coming..." I think the level's likely an outlier set to ease people in to the game. Also, no way the music is the same style with every stage. Ohtani made a huge variety of music in different styles before, likely why they got him on board for this game along with his track record. Even if he doesn't fix this song, this song will likely be an outlier and you'll find a bunch to like.

What bothers me more is how everything looks stiff. I get this game is still in development, but they could have straight up pasted Sonic's gameplay from Generations and it would be better. For Classic Sonic I can accept that they chose the double edged sword of stopping whenever you want on a dime, but making it look janky as a result. With Modern? It looks like an inherent flaw in his player physics.

 

In fact, Sonic Generations 3DS had the best physics since Sonic 3:

 

Not better than Sonic Advance.

 

To be fair you can't really compare them cause one is pixel based and the other is polygon based

 

Alright, so they decided to listen to their fans, who in general clamored for them to refine the gameplay that they had in Sonic Generations, so they're doing just that while adding another gameplay style. Yet, this is still considered by those here to be them "not listening to their fans" and trying to rely on nostalgia just because of one stage. How can they ever cater to people who can't even keep their criticisms straight and without contradictions in how other games are judged? The main reactions here so far have been people throwing a fit over every minor inconsistency or exaggerated supposed problem like the placement of a rock and the existence of the bridge section then whining about how the game will be terrible. The fanbase being divided does too little to explain these behaviors or how these inconsistencies are from the same people. it's more like many of you were never counting on the possibility of the game being good in the first place.

 

Uh, what? You can totally compare the physics between a game with 2D graphics and a game with 3D graphics. Especially when the 3D game is literally trying to emulate the 2D game's physics, it's only a matter of whether the game's intended control scheme and design is made to fit it, and Classic GHZ in Generations 3DS is actually literally a carbon-copy of Act 1 in Sonic 1's level design, meaning it's the most perfect thing to compare the physics between that you could get.

 

I'm gonna throw out a wild guess:

this is the Classic Sonic intro stage before he gets warped to the future again.
the reason why the music is so overly fake-Genesis-y and the level is so "green hill again" is because of that.

not saying the rest of the Classic Sonic stuff will be better but i bet it will be more in line with the rest of the game, and maybe a bit more original.

 

I can agree there, but only to a certain extent. I do see merit in them taking a more in your face, speedy direction, but (to me at least) Sonic is, and will always be, a platformer. The brilliance of the original games is that they took something as "established" as the platformer and transformed it, garnering an impressive amount the potential for mechanical and environment design that was lightyears ahead of anything before it. And this lead to an incredible layer of depth and nuance that not a lot of platformers had back then. Not everyone caught on to it, but they didn't need to. The style was so mature and well executed at such an early state that it was enjoyable regardless. And so part of the reward for overcoming the challenges ahead was from seeing what would come next, and the best part was knowing that it was all coming from you (well, most of the time).

But for some reason that need to impress skyrocketed around the adventure era. The most gripping parts of those games are the moments where all control is stripped away, to show you something cool that you could be doing. Meanwhile the other time is spent running (and maybe jumping) to the next cool thing to look at. It's exciting sure, but it completely destroys any real connection between the player and the game. Basically in order for Sonic games to be fun now, they have to center the game around "looking" cool. But this also sort of screws them over, as they now have to up their ante for every subsequent game in the franchise. They have to make things more thrilling, and more exciting, which means more automation, less control, and therefore less gameplay. And so they set every new mechanic to work in specific context to allow for more intentional level design, meticulously plan out levels to keep the player attentive, and so the actual "platforming" devolves into these basic jumping puzzles over really huge, or extremely tiny platforms, that rely way too much on additional abilities like the stomp or homing attack to be anything close to exciting.

Wouldn't it be equally as cool if you ran really fast, but also had to maintain that speed to actually apply it in the level? That way the games can still be these really stylish, kinetic, fast paced games, that hold some substance and character to them. I feel like Sonic Team has just given up on trying to create a compelling and gripping game, and instead have just sort of relied on their urban legend to sell Sonic to the public. Yeah Unleashed and Generations are fun games and awesome to play through, but that's partially because they reek of "flash". Take a lot of the fancy effects, and automation away, and you start to see it for the bland, samey, experience it is.

 

Say what you will about the Adventure games, but when it comes to Unleashed, Colors, and Generations, I couldn't disagree more. I don't know that I've ever felt MORE connected to Sonic's gameplay in that kinetic sense than I was in Generations. Sure, Green Hill was just BOOSTING, but Green Hill was always about giving the player free reign to see how awesome they COULD be. When the later stages come around, it's so much more rewarding to blast through the zones, because now you have to earn it. Generations might have a boost button, but its levels are designed to take advantage of the same kind of thing. Just like you can't hold right to win in Sonic 1, you can't just boost to win in Generations. You have to stay engaged, and MAN, stages like Crisis City or Planet Wisp where there's just this incredible beat-by-beat energy to every control I'm making, like I'm making myself want to go play it right now, and I've got over 250 hours in it.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EBKB2mFaIk[/youtube]

This stuff isn't about control being stripped away, or cinematic looks at what I could be doing. This is just me being able to DO AWESOME THINGS within the game because I know the stage and physics that well.

However, a big strength of Classic Sonic was that it gave you a lot more room to choose between speed and exploration, gave you incentives to do both, and featured levels and even SECTIONS of levels catered more to one or the other. There's not really room for anything BUT speed in this style, and I think that's why some people don't find the boost formula as engaging as I do. I always played the classics like this, anyway, but if speedrunning the same level a billion times doesn't grip you, then there's no way this would be as interesting.

 

I'm kind of thinking this too. The first modern level is very different and shows a city in ruins being ravaged by Eggman. They've mentioned something about Eggman having some kind of power that brings Classic to the present. That same power might be screwing around with the past and it might bring Classic to the present after that level. It would explain the sand and it would also account for why most of the level is still lush, as the sand just got there like, 2 seconds earlier (maybe there's a cutscene that shows GHZ with water before the water turns to sand?), so there hasn't been enough time for the level to truly deteriorate, which it is in a way as there are a lot of crumbling platforms and bridges, especially as you go further along in the level.

So the hopeful part of me is thinking this was more thought out than it seems.

Also I wonder how finished this GHZ track actually is. I know that Modern Sonic had a different sound direction in Generations than Classic but it wasn't so drastically different. This GHZ and the song from Modern's level sound like they don't even belong in the same game.

 

Tomoya Ohtani actually said that on twitter. 'The other classic levels won't have songs similar to this '

 

So, since this is seeming to tie into Generations so much with the time-manipulation and Classic Sonic, I don't suppose that we're going to finally get an explanation of how Eggman escaped the white void?

 

Sonic Forces will be at Atlus' E3 2017 booth. Doesn't say if it'll be playable or not though. Also the page used to say that 13 Sentinels, Vanillaware's next game, will be there but it's removed now so lol somebody fucked up.