Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.
I like assumptions too. :v:
Some people don't like the design aesthetic. The shade of blue on Sonic and the shade of green on his eyes aren't exactly close on the color wheel.
Tan vs blue debate is stupid, I will agree.
What? Are you gonna debate me if I say I dislike Brent Spiner as Joker? Most of the complaints I see are about the quality of the actors themselves, not that Sonic has a voice.
Aesthetically pleasing proportions are a thing. Super lanky doesn't fit the bill, it's poor anatomical work.
Because God forbid I complain about development hell.
At this point, I'd rather them do just that. They've been pupetring the corpse of Sonic around for the past 10 years, whilst simultaneously dragging his bloodied and battered reputation through the mud. And the only reason SEGA keeps Sonic around is because they have literally nothing else. Every other IP is either dead, or shelved for use in another kart racer. Sonic is the only thing still bringing in the bank. That and the occasional Atlus game. There's no love from us because there's no love from SEGA. Sonic has long since stopped being a character, and is now a money-making robot for SEGA to churn another game out of every year in order to keep themselves afloat. And frankly, what do I have to love anymore? All I get is broken product after broken product with garbage that I never asked for injected in.
I agree, honestly. Mania isn't really solid in of itself either, but at least it knows what it wants to be. It's trying to be a Sonic CD/Sonic 3 hybrid, and the devs are proceeding with that concept. Whether or not it works has yet to be seen, but I hope that they can improve on what worked in Mania for the next game. Studiopolis looks interesting, but it too suffers from the stages being ginormous.
I believe it has more to do with how Sonic was marketed as the "anit-Mario", but same concept. Sonic was different in comparison to other platformers.
SOA hasn't really had much involvement in Sonic outside of Pontaff writing the stories, and I believe they developed a majority of Generations. Don't quote me on that. Point is, I don't know how much they can do. The final decision is up to SOJ.
It was there, it was just drowned out by the Studiopolis hype. I was right in the tide of people complaining about the game being half new and half old, but when I saw the new, I honestly just stopped caring that it was rehashed, and prayed that the other stuff would be like Studiopolis.
Why the hell is everyone getting so defensive about people speaking their minds about something they don't like? What they showed us is arguably mediocre. They've demonstrated barely any significant features or content for us as fans to be excited about. And we're suddenly supposed to keep our mouths shut because, "it's only 10 seconds of footage". There's this thing called impressions. It's the act of forming ideas and opinions without much tangible evidence presented. It's what a lot of people base their assumptions and thoughts on when presented with a new product. It is then the presenters job to make sure that we view this product in a positive light. No one is sore about Green Hill or Flying Battery in Mania because they made it specifically clear that it was the game's intention, and that they planned on doing all they could to re-invigorate them (which I'd say so far they've proven). But Forces was PROMISED to be a new game, with new ideas, and new concepts. Iizuka clearly stated that this is not a sequel to Generations, as a newer experience can be expected. And now it's clear that this was said in an attempt to keep us from jumping to conclusions about the game. But the problem is, is that they SAID it wasn't a "sequel", but everything they have shown is just the same boring, tired, unimpressive filler we saw back in 2011. No one here is trying to berate Modern Sonic based off of some misfounded hatred, but off of a history of producing inconsistent, uninspired, overall mediocre games. Meanwhile, Mania has a group of people taking what they have and trying to make something new and exciting out of it. And it's not like no one hasn't been disappointed with anything in Mania so far (if you go over to the thread you'll see that there are plenty of criticisms surrounding it as well). But what we have seen is consistent with what we've been told, and it sends a clear message on what to expect. I thought this stigma of elitism and fanboy hatred died out years ago, but apparently not.
Because humans have this ability to think that an attack on their favourite thing is an attack on them. Applies to anything that is worshiped.
You, Aaron and Sky must be having a good laugh about all this huh? :v:
It's okay, dude. Let me be your voice. Don't martyr yourself for the brand.
Honestly, I can kinda see where they're coming from. After hearing Sonic get slammed year after year, it eventually gets grating. The amount of negativity that's outpouring from the community is pretty staggering, and it's probably just as annoying for them to hear about, as it is to hear them complain about our complaining. It's like Wikileaks nowadays. At first, the leaks were incredibly enlightening, and got all of us in a tizzy. But then more and more secrets started getting out, and eventually it became old hat. There was so much garbage piled on that the average person just stopped caring, and began plugging their ears whenever more leaks started coming out. At that point, they didn't want to be angry anymore. They just wanted to live their life oblivious to what was going on around them.
Same goes for the folks pushing back. The constant stream of negative games have gotten to them too, and at this point, they're just happy to see something modestly different. They're tired of the negativity, and tired of constantly hearing about it. So they push back. I agree with a lot of what you're saying man, but these folk aren't on the defense without reason either.
I can see the criticisms, the faults, the repetition and otherwise. I'm just personally grated down by the outcries that blow things way out of proportion as if people are basically looking for an excuse to riot on the internet about Sonic being shit at this point. Yeah, 2013 wasn't a good year for Sonic and neither was 2014, and I can fully see why some of these complaints are made involving Sandy Hill Zone, the lack of graphical polish compared to a game from 2011, Sonic losing all forward momentum when he hits an invisible spring, the boost pads, etc.
But most of the time it genuinely feels like a single one of those complaints by themselves is enough for someone to search out the torch and pitchfork and try to shoot down everyone that is even remotely optimistic like they're a bunch of retards that should be as angry as they are.
The judgement of "having little to do with Sonic gameplay" doesn't make much sense especially in the case of Shadow the Hedgehog. All that you have are different objectives in the stages that aren't just "get to the goal ring". Whether you need to defeat all of the enemies or need to collect a certain amount of items, it still requires the basic gameplay and platforming that other Adventure-style games had. I don't get why people complain so loudly about needing to complete objectives that don't even take much time to accomplish and the game even encourages the player to take different routes in the stages like in Mad Matrix, the Doom, Digital Circuit, Space Gadget, and many others. In regards to other Adventure-style games, then it's Sonic Team's way of adapting the other characters so that their abilities can be utilized well. For example, Tails's flight and Knuckles's glide would break levels that are designed with regular platforming, as evidenced by how they work in SA1/SADX. Knuckles was given stages that made him find Master Emerald shards so that his abilities could be utilized as best as those could, and Tails is playable only for specific sections in Sonic 06.
The Werehog was used to make the game longer. Although I can see how people may think that the Werehog gameplay contrasts with the boost gameplay, I thought that it was fun. I doubt that people would complain as much if another character was used for it. Every Sonic game with the boost-style gameplay has something to make the game longer because it would be very short otherwise.
EDIT: Regarding Sonic 4, my opinion is that people set their expectations unreasonably high for it. Sonic 4 Episode I and II called back to some of the zones from the early Sonic games and the soundtrack used synthesized instruments. Despite the levels being inspired by older zones, they typicallly had their own unique gimmicks. I also recall Episode II's engine being improved from Episode I. It's evident that they put effort in the two games and both are enjoyable.
This doesn't make sense because Sonic Generations was received well, although that's partially due to the fact that the game uses old levels and bosses. Sonic Generations had the boost-style gameplay, it had Classic Sonic, and Planet Wisp (HD) and Tropical Resort (3DS) had Wisps. I think that the Sonic Forces developers want to put more focus on the third character. Also, the Sonic Boom games were not made by Sonic Team.
Actually most of us are upset with GHz being in Sonic Mania (or at least were when it was first announced, and are now silently resigned to the fact).
People are complaining only because they want the game to be good! We are in a position where now, more than ever, our voices can be heard. We have a chance to show Sonic Team and Sega where the money is at, and people who can take it in the direction that we all want. Why would we waste that opportunity by simply accepting whatever is given to us? No one here wants the series to fail or die, but people are tired of Sega and Sonic Team making the worst possible decisions when it comes to their strongest and move beloved character. We harp on it because we expect something better out of Sonic, and know that Sonic is very capable of it. I get that people are upset with the negativity surrounding the franchise, especially at a time like this, where the entire series quality is brought into question. But don't you want Sonic to break those expectations? Don't you want him to not just be good, but great? These complaints aren't people trying to find reasons to shut down the whole project, it's people wanting it to be good, and demonstrating what they think will only hurt the franchise. I'm willing to accept a lot of stuff about Modern Sonic, if Sonic Team is willing to take it a step further, but they always second guess themselves and just switch it up, never giving anything room to grow. And when they do, they never elevate it any further and cause it to stagnate. I just want a really good Sonic game, because Sonic has really good games. Pretty sure everyone else does tool.
Sonic Forces, is Sonic Colors + Generations put together, with an added gameplay style. "Sonic Colorations 2". I'm sure they will hit all the necessary bullet points to make it a decent game, that is, at bare minimum on the same level as Generations. I just personally feel that they should have more to show for a 1st impression after 4 years of development. I also know Sega likes to be very hush when it comes to revealing info, so we may be speculating based off of irrelevant builds of the game. What if boost wisp is only there to regulate the boost? What if they introduce new wisps that aren't context sensitive to level placement and have more practical use? What if the GHZ level we see, is a tutorial level that introduces the 1st full length level? We won't know until release gets closer.
They just need to chill with boost pads and nostalgia. Give us awesome tropes and unique level schemes...there's still a lot of room for potential in this game. I'll remain skeptically optimistic with low expectations.
SN: Mania is getting criticized for level choice? It's practically the "Sonic 4" we deserve LMAO! I didn't like the idea of rehashing, but the new rendition of GHZ is fleshed out well enough to set a good impression imo.
If you're going to use those parts of SA2's story to show how dark it is, then Shadow the Hedgehog's story definitely can't be criticized for being dark. In SA2, Shadow the Hedgehog had all of his memories, but with parts of certain ones altered so that he could carry out Gerald's plan. Shadow the Hedgehog is about him trying to regain the memories that he lost. At the beginning, the Black Arms invide Westopolis, catching GUN off guard and causing casualties. If Shadow decides to assist Black Doom, then GUN's forces will be pushed back to their base, Central City is destroyed, and Black Doom successfully manipulates Shadow, making him believe to be the arbiter of humanity's fate. In contrast, if you help Sonic and the others fend off the Black Arms, then they will be pushed back to their base, the Black Comet; the events of the True Ending of the game occur at this point. In another path, Shadow learns about his origins from the GUN commander and begins to believe that he shouldn't have been created. In the Neutral paths, Shadow is convinced by Dr. Eggman that he is an android and decides to repay him by overthrowing his empire. Note that in the game, you can directly participate in things like causing bombs to explode in Central City, which is not that different from Dr. Eggman's plan to destroy Prison Island.
Big the Cat's appearance in SA1 is irrelevant to the Echidna clan being wiped out. I'm not even sure why you brought him up; it's just like people saying that the Sonic series shouldn't have serious stories or they can't take the stories seriously just because the main character is a blue anthropomorphic hedgehog, proving my point.
Your criticism doesn't have much of a point to it. Your point taken to its extreme is that Sonic Team should do only one thing and not try to do anything new. There is nothing wrong with the Find the lost Chao missions. You usually use the Mystic Melody to unlock a new path and platform your way to the Chao. It's unique compared to playing the stage again within a time limit or getting 100 rings. Death Chamber's Find the lost Chao mission is a particularly unique one, requiring the Air Necklace and you access a completely different section of the stage. Now then, what's next? I'm sure that people didn't particularly ask to play as E-102 or Amy or ask for gameplay with the mechs, but I'm sure that a lot of people still enjoyed it. Dr. Eggman's levels in SA2 were fun and Amy's gameplay was used in Sonic Advance 1 and 3. Also, you're complaining about needing to do the missions in Shadow the Hedgehog for 100% completion, but that was always the case in the 3D games prior to Shadow the Hedgehog.
The levels in Sonic 4 had their own gimmicks, even if the appearance of the levels resembled old ones. Sylvania Castle, Oil Desert, and White Park had unique appearances, too. You say that Sonic 4 is supposedly too much like the classic games; Sonic Mania is even more similar, featuring some of the same levels from the classic games, yet very few, if any, voice that complaint toward that game.
The reaction I expect from people is to not immediately make assumptions about Sonic Forces's quality from small amounts of footage of small sections from the levels. Is that too much to expect? It apparently is, seeing as how people are hypocritically defensive when others become annoyed by the constant amount of complaining about how the game won't be good.
LimitCrown I'm honestly getting the sentiment you're just dismissing other people's complaints about Sonic games simply because you can enjoy those Sonic games for yourself. The previous bulk of your responses to my previous post had little to do about acknowledging the basis of the complaints people had with those games, and more about justifying / defending Sonic Team's choices in a vacuum. Acknowledging Unleashed without the Werehog would be a short game or that Tails and Knuckles would need modifications to be played in 3D doesn't suddenly mean people aren't allowed to complain about making half of Unleashed a GoW brawler, Knuckles being turned a puzzle hunting game, or Tails turning into a TPS. Nor does having multiple objectives to access levels in Shadow the Hedgehog doesn't suddenly mean people aren't allowed to think the actual objectives inof themselves were not fun to play. And if Sega's PR of "unrivaled classic Sonic feel" "the sequel you've been waiting 16 years for" "Sonic 4 as you truly imagined it" for Sonic 4 and other spiel was anything to go by, it's quite clear which party was guilty of setting up expectations (not the fans). You're only handwaving the feelings of other people who don't think and react to Sonic games like you do here, and you're doing it with bad assumptions.
Subtract that from your posts, and all that's left is your hope that complaints from fans about Sonic games will cease. You write this hope just after arguing, incorrectly, why the feelings of people who don't like the games you find fun shouldn't be taken seriously.
So perhaps your posts are a good example of why arguing over Sonic Team's games (let alone Sonic Forces) hasn't stopped.
Well...umm... my love towards the characters and games shall not cloud my judgement, here I come: even in the darkest of times Sonic Forces looks incredibly colorful and the stage really conveys a sense of 'battle'. Our new ally reminds me of Chip, but Green Hill Zone looks nothing like before!? I try to understand. This part of the level is easy and shows basic actions, can I homing attack one of these water fountains to launch myself into the air? Does character dialogue hint at hidden objectives such as 'Knuckles has been spotted on top of that building. Speak with him to play as Knuckles.' or 'Shadow is fighting against Eggman's robot. Help him out to play as Shadow.'? I'm losing my mind over this. There's still a way to go.
From what I've observed regarding Shadow the Hedgehog's reception and its mission-based structure since its release, the majority of the criticisms were not on the basis of the missions being done poorly; it was criticized for existing in the first place. Never mind the fact that it was a spin-off, people judged the game as if it should have been just like the Sonic Adventure games. Likewise, the majority of the complaints of the Werehog were not of the gameplay style being implemented poorly; it was mainly criticized for existing and not being "Sonic-like". Knuckles's levels in SA1 and SA2 involve him using his gliding ability to traverse through the levels and find the emerald shards. Regular 3D levels like the ones that Sonic goes through would generally be broken by his ability. Do you have any better ideas that wouldn't have people complain if Sonic Team were to implement them? It doesn't matter anyways, because people complaining about the other characters and blaming them for ruining the franchise caused them to not be playable in any subsequent 3D game.
You've missed my point. Nearly every time that the Sonic Team tried to do something unique with the series, it was criticized specifically for having it, and when they tried to make games like Sonic 4 Episodes I and II, they were criticized for not making them just like the classic games, even when those games have their own unique gimmicks. You can't blame the overly heightened expectations for Sonic 4 Episode I entirely on Sonic Team because even if they didn't try to do that, the fanbase would have still acted the same way. One of the reasons for people complaining about Sonic Forces and needless worries about it not going to be good is its more simplistic artstyle compared to Sonic Generations and another complaint is that the levels are only linear, this being determined by a miniscule amount of footage for two separate levels and two separate gameplay mechanics. There is no excuse for why people can't wait and see before making judgments on the game as a whole, and blaming Sonic Team for that is just an excuse.
It's disingenuous to say that I'm dismissing other people's complaints when you have already taken a side on the matter and won't bother to argue your side.
Your point about Shadow and the Werehog would be a bit more agreeable if it weren't for the fact that in the decades since those games game out, tons and tons of legitimate reasons that they sucked ass have come out and are readily available. I wasn't really aware enough of the series back at the time it was being reviewed, but it's not hard to know that Shadow's mission structure was constantly making you collect massive specific numbers of goals that are not plentiful enough to be accomplished without backtracking, or the way the game's morality system forces you to play each final level twice, and the first level a total of at least ten times. I have no doubt in my mind that those complaints were present back when Shadow was released, and they're far from a "problematic because it's there" complaint. In fact, branching level paths would be a great way to make the current, more linear Sonic games more replayable, if you make the level that leads into the branch be selectable whenever after you beat it.
I have however known plenty of Unleashed discussion, and believe me, the problem with the werehog was always "It's boring as shit" and has continued to be "it's boring as shit" even as the daytime stages have gotten their sudden burst of unexplained popularity. Whether it fits or not is neither here or there if it's not fun to play in the first place. If it's fun and people still say it's unfitting, then you have an argument, but the werehog isn't fun. It's boring as shit.
The Sonic 4 games are just a weirder case entirely, one that I think has everything to do with branding and presentation rather than the 'just-ok' games themselves, and that's pretty similar to what's got people so angry with Forces. Both of these games were touted as big new things that would revolutionize the franchise, only to instead be more of, admittedly functional and decent, gameplay and levels, and making the fanbase as a whole feel cheated.
It's like if they said "We're releasing a new Sonic Adventure game" and everyone got hyped only for it to be an anthology collection of the Dreamcast era (which would include Heroes maybe? Would that mean it has to include Shadow too??). Sure, they're technically not lying, but it's still gonna leave people feeling cheated.
Edit: jesus I didn't realise how wordy this post is maybe I need to cut back on the goldfish crackers
My brief thoughts on the classic footage:
First it was social media posting memes, now they've
given us the tools to make the memes ourselves. Nice that Sega's come full circle. :v:
Is this bothering anyone else? I'm just asking because REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE*
I can overlook a somewhat less busy background. If anything, that could even be a smart move, but do better than having everything 0 or 90 degrees. This isn't goddamned Bubsy 3D, you can't get away with that anymore. I really can't see how this new engine can do anything the old one can't, either.
*Translation: IT'S BOTHERING ME A LOT.
Separate names with a comma.