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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    I'm not saying they're better I'm just saying that plot wasn't good :specialed:/>

    Although in ways I do think SA1's plot was better. Also I thought Unleashed and Colors had pretty good stories.
     
  2. Atendega

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    Incidentally, I think both the Storybook games and Unleashed had the most well executed stories in the entire series, bar none.
     
  3. Ritz

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    A create-a-character element is actually a brilliant idea for the franchise on a business level. It would signal some level of fanbase awareness that they very clearly have never had, even as they've begun trawling the fanbase for PR employment- having our men on the inside hasn't given us a voice, it's just made self-referential zombies of those people. See how Skyler and Gene have been reduced to shitposting and "well actually"s when we know they're screaming on the inside, because employment trumps honesty when met with astronomical California rental fees. BUT I DIGRESS: There's no denying that the appeal of the characters alone have carried the franchise this far, in spite of game design and direction. Encouraging the sort of audience participation the fanbase is always getting razzed over is actually the only viable route towards unifying the fanbase in some way. If the system were robust enough that you could passably recreate the Freedom Fighters, Fang, Tekno the Canary, playable counterparts for the Chaotix, and every echidna in between- honestly, who's going to bitch about that? They'd finally have something for everyone without having to compromise. Excitement would be off the charts.

    At least until we see how that character plays. It's probably going to have a grappling hook or something. But it's a plausible idea, the template for a Sonic character is generic enough that you could do it well, and Sonic Team's been cutting their teeth on character creation for years with Phantasy Star Online. Will they pull it off? No
     
  4. Kyuu

    Kyuu

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    Wow, like, 6 pages late, but oh well:
    Ahhh, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification. :)

    I dunno about the Storybook games myself, but I've always felt like Unleashed had the right balance between silly and serious, up until the final boss. On one hand, there's all the "Dark Gaia will destroy the world!!!" and "Chip is Light Gaia" stuff, but on the other hand, there's Chip's comic relief scenes, and dialogue with the NPCs in the towns. The best way I can think of to put it is that the story's focus is more on having fun than on telling a serious story.


    On that note, unpopular opinion: While I don't care for Lost World's story itself, I do feel like it did a decent job of balancing serious events with a light-hearted tone. Not the best job, mind, but still.
     
  5. Misinko

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    I can see the love for SA1. Colors barely had any story though. It was Sonic and Tails dwaddling in a theme park, meeting and then losing an alien, and then kicking Eggman's butt. Basically the same as S2, but with Wisps.

    I can see the love for Unleashed, but I feel it's not focused enough on what's going on in the World as a whole. I mean yeah, the world is shattered and everything, but no one seems to pay it any mind. It's the driving force for the heroes, but talks of the Gaia manuscripts and Doctor Eggman come up far more often than any talk about the world being in jeopardy do. It just creates this strange disconnect that makes way for personal character stories as opposed to the giant pink elephant in the room. On top of that. Sonic wins far too much in Unleashed, and coupled with no one caring about the world, it doesn't give the story an urgency, and as a result, I personally feel it dampens its impact. The character interactions are great, and Chip's development over the story is wonderful, but it doesn't have much in the way of gripping me.

    Now I do enjoy Secret Ring's story. But for the same reasons as Unleashed, it falls flat for me. Yeah, Sonic had a curse placed on him, but the story never properly address it. We don't see Sonic in pain as the flame continues to get dimmer, we don't see Sonic constantly trying to speed up the pace in order to get to the meat of things faster, he just meanders about, as if the timer on his shoulder means nothing.

    Black Knight had me until after King Arthur was defeated, coupled with the ending. Again, has the same issues as the previous two games.

    I'm not sayin' SA2 has a good story, but it has the most things I want out of a good story. If something simple were to come along with a ton of engaging characters, but with no catastrophic event to draw everyone's attention, I'd probably like it a lot more than SA2's story.
     
  6. DustArma

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    So because some people here are going into autistic fits of rage over what amounts to about a minute of total gameplay footage, let me remind you the reaction here to the first Sonic Generations gameplay footage that was shown, of which people also threw autistic fits of rage over the Classic Sonic portion.

    https://youtu.be/Wuj-6T_ymqg?t=20s

    And let me remind all of you, the game is still in development and we won't know how good or bad it is until we see more of it, the literal same shit happened over Sonic Generations and I don't need to remind you of the massive boners a lot of people here, including me, have over that game.
     
  7. I wouldn't call the majority of SA2's story to be dark. The only portions that were noticeably dark were Sonic being lauched out of the ARK in a capsule with explosives and Professor Gerald's speech and diary entries. SA1 had the eradication of most of the Echidna clan by Perfect Chaos. From what I could tell, the Sonic fanbase has constantly complained about any of the stories in subsequent games being serious or "dark". As an example, Shadow the Hedgehog's story is criticized a lot for being dark and it's criticized for being "edgy" as well. Its story isn't that much different in tone from the dark portions of SA2's story, but people had a problem with it. People clamoring for more comedic stories for reasons like "A story in a game with a blue hedgehog that defeats robots shouldn't be serious" is the main reason why Sonic Colors and Sonic Lost World have those stories. Despite this, the fanbase complained about those afterwards.


    Much of the decisions that Sonic Team made is arguably due to the inconsistent demands of the fanbase as a whole. For many of the times that Sonic Team has tried to do something new with the series's gameplay, people complained. When Shadow the Hedgehog featured its mission-based gameplay system, people complained; it's apparently outrageous for objectives besides "reach the end of the stage" to exist. Because of the reception of Sonic 06 and people complaining about the other characters, they abandoned the Adventure-style gameplay that the game features and all 3D Sonic games until now had only Sonic as a playable character. People complained about the Werehog because it wasn't fast. When Sonic 4 Episode II was released, people complained because it wasn't enough like the classics, so they abandoned the idea of making a sequel. I also suspect that one of the reasons why Sonic Mania is receiving better reception is that Sonic Team isn't making it, so people wouldn't be as judgmental about the game as they would be otherwise. Now, despite not much information about the levels, story, and the third character of Sonic Forces being known, people are already being judgmental of it. Is it any wonder that Sonic Team doesn't exactly know what to do to appease their fans?
     
  8. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Wow Classic Sonic looks so stiff in that footage. There was less to see here, but it looked a lot smoother at least.
     
  9. Misinko

    Misinko

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    Remember when the same thing happened over Sonic 4, and they were right? Remember when the same thing happened over Unleashed, and they were right? Remember when the same thing happened over Sonic Lost World, and they were right?

    Also, I'll still complain about Classic Sonic's gameplay to this day. The levels are well designed, but the physics themselves are hot garbage.
     
  10. DustArma

    DustArma

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    Remember when the same thing happened only to a half of Unleashed? Remember how they said the same about Colors and were pretty much completely wrong?

    My point is stop raising your pitchforks over a minute of gameplay footage, if the time comes and Forces is a huge pile of steaming shit then I'll eat my words right there and then, otherwise?

    Chill the fuck down
     
  11. synchronizer

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    I wonder whether that's the way GHZ looks in the other versions. I expected the Switch version to look something like Generations, but wow this is unexpected.
     
  12. AutiMatic

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    Generations was received very well by the Sonic fan base and general critics. Boost gameplay was refined as a step up from Unleashed, and level design around the mechanic was expanded successfully in layers, routes, and paths! It introduced Classic Sonic imitating/emulating (NOT replicating) classic physics and level design competently enough to work. Generations is 1 of the best entries to the series in spite of its flaws and missed opportunities for add-on content & DLC.

    The problem is, with Forces, is that after 4 years of development, we need a more progressive sign as an indicator for why money should be spent for the purchase of this game. Sell it to me. Boost Pad Zone, with a wisp dependent boost gameplay is NOT a good sign for a 1st impression. Boost is not an implied core gameplay mechanic here. Boost is instead a "power up" feature from obtaining a wisp, which is a HUGE difference. The player doesn't even have access to the proclaimed core gameplay without the power up?! That is very telling. What can Sonic do without power ups or any outside influences? The answers for that question are what "core" gameplay is to consist of, and also what the levels should be designed around while incorporating power ups and wisp abilities as optional added means to progress beyond obstacles, hazards, and gimmicks *power to the players*. It's not considered organic power ups if their application is forced on you to proceed through the level. That's what separates Speed Shoes, Invincibility, and Elemental shields from the use of wisps, and also why Mario doesn't suffer from the same issues regarding his core gameplay even if the level requires a power up to proceed.

    Green Sand Zone is also a play at nostalgia. I honestly don't mind the art style. Gives it that Little Big Planet feel and would hope background to foreground schemes are used for layers and routes instead of just horizontal and vertical axis to traverse. Floating platforms, land masses, and structures are 100% normal for Sonic since Genesis days...dunno why ppl are flipping out about it now. If they can get the physics right for Classic, and get rid of the automations, it would be proof of brand confidence and desired progress warranted by 4 years of development. In the game play footage, when Classic Sonic gets bounced by the floor spring, it halted his horizontal movement...that's a bad sign. Boost pad before a loop...it's not even a tall, oblong, or double loop...it's a standard sized hold right-loop. People should feel insulted, and I hope that's fixed by release time. If Sonic Team can develop 1 classic and 1 modern stage without boost pads in this game, I'll pour vodka up my butt to get drunk "faster" in celebration.

    People are skeptical with good reason. Aside from aesthetics, there's nothing presented so far, that pushes "next gen" status as far as gameplay wise. This game is basically "Sonic Colorations 2" with a 3rd gameplay style we don't know if we like, but never asked for lol.
     
  13. Kyuu

    Kyuu

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    Top Speed Zone aside, I'd actually like if Forces were to put less emphasis on boosting. Make it like the Mega Drive games, where you have to play well to conserve/maintain momentum (boost). If you're able to use it well enough, you can access and take faster routes. Build the levels around the player moving without boosting, with paths that can be reached/best utilized with boosting, if that makes sense.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that's what Forces' modern gameplay is going to be. That's just what I'd like to see from another "boost" game.
     
  14. ancara

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    As far as I see it, it's a wait and see for me. Nothing truly amazed me for the most part yet, but I haven't seen anything that's gotten me to consider us needing to devolve into SANIC'S ARMS AREN'T BLUE BOYCOTTING 5EVER :specialed: tier arguing for 200 pages over it all.

    We'll know by E3 whether to truly worry or not. But until then, let's enjoy the ride and speculate over the 3rd character silhouette until that time, alright? :v:
     
  15. Misinko

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    People complained about Unleashed's daytime stages too. Mainly about the difficulty, how much of a trial-and-error experience it was, and how the game was nothing but "boost to win". I'll argue against Colors as well, seeing as when I play a Sonic game, I'm not playing it for 2D block platforming.

    How about the entirety of Prison Island blowing up? How about the constant looming threat of terror from the countdown, coupled with the negotiations from the president? How about the hopeless outlook Shadow had on the situation, lifelessly proclaiming that "there's no reason to save anyone anymore" as the ARK hurdled towards Earth? How about the murder of a young girl for just so happening to be on the spaceship the day it was raided? How about the trauma and hatred Shadow experienced as a result of witnessing his only friend's final moments? The Echidna wipe was dark, yes, but it's hard to keep it in mind along side a giant purple cat fishing for his pet frog.

    Now, Shadow and 06's issues were that they peaked over that unsteady line that separates dark storytelling from goofy edginess. Black Doom constantly whining about humans isn't dark, it's grating. Shadow's "epics" at the end of each pathway aren't some kind've revelation, they're self-righteous and bland. Shadow carrying around realistic weapons alongside big goofy swords and cartoonish blasters is jarring and in some ways hilarious. A creepy dude walking around all "spooky" isn't dark, it's cartoonish. Sonic being stabbed in the back isn't horrifying, it's monotonous and droll. Silver being from a "desolate future" isn't sobering, it's trite and tedious. No, the tones as a whole wasn't much grimmer than SA2's, in some chunks. As a whole though, the "darkness" in Shadow and 06 are ham-fisted, and unceremoniously and constantly dumped in our faces, especially in Shadow's case.

    And that's where SA2 succeeded. It understood when to pull its punches, and when to go full-force. It left room in there for cartoonish fun alongside the serious moments. And SEGA misinterpreted what clicked for a lot of people. Again, there's a fine line between "dark" and "edgy", and SA2, for all intents and purposes, walked that line fairly well. It didn't have Shadow exposit about the atrocities he saw on the ARK, the man didn't have time for that. He was on a mission, and he wasn't gonna let anything stop him. Same goes for Sonic in the ARK. He didn't go on a big tangent about how Eggman would one day be foiled, or give a big heroic speech to Tails and Amy about how he'd miss them or how to carry on, he made it short and sweet while he thought of a plan. And I know that I talked about how the classics weren't really dark, but if you step back and look at them, they had a lot of dark elements. Eggman polluting the world, and converting all of Sonic's friends into robots is horrifying when you actually step back and think about it. But it goes back to Happy Tree Friends, it's never treated as something horrifying, so the effect is lost. The potential is there for dark storytelling, it's just not explored. Also, Lost World and Colors are panned for being generally bad stories, alongside being too kiddy. Same with Shadow and 06 really.

    I already talked about this when I was addressing Irixion. Again, Sonic Team constantly tacks on garbage that nobody asks for in addition to what the fans do want. Please point me to the people that said "Golly, those find the Chao missions in SA2 sure were a riot! I wish SEGA would do more of them in a game!" Please point me to the folks who said "Golly, you know what Soinc really needs? A God-of-war fighting system!" Please point me to the people who said "Golly, those classic Sonic games were so unique and diverse when it came to level themes! I wish Sonic Team would make Sonic 4, and recycle all the level themes from those previous games for this one instead of making new ones!" The problem with the Shadow the Hedgehog gameplay is that the games have always been "get to the goal" to win. Nobody asked for an expansive set of missions that you were required to complete in order to 100% the game, Sonic Team shoved that in for God knows what reason. On top of that, no one complained that Sonic 4 Episode 2 wasn't enough like the classics. Like its predecessor, Episode 2 was too much like the classics. Oil Desert, Sky Fortress, and Death Egg Mk. II are obviously ripped from Sonic's past games, especially Sky Fortress and Oil Desert. White Park could be argued, for the snow level alone. When people said they wanted Sonic 4, they meant they wanted a new experience with that old gameplay. Something like Advance, y'know, the game that constantly gets praised for being the "real" Sonic 4?

    And honestly, what kind've reaction do you expect when the best foot you put forward is so underwhelming? When all they show off is a couple linear and empty levels with nothing we really haven't seen before? When the OST sounds like the most generic anime opening ever? Can ya blame me for being dissapoined when I first saw Modern Sonic standing over a desolate landscape, and then then Classic Sonic reared his head? That's another thing we didn't ask for, another game with Classic Sonic, especially with Mania being revealed. Again, it's not an issue of the fans not letting SEGA know what we want. It's an issue of SEGA not listening. We told Sonic Team we wanted more boost when everyone, including Adventure fans, praised Sonic Generations for the way it handled the boost. We told SEGA we were disappointed in them after Lost Worlds, when everyone questioned why they went to a new style after they got it right in Generations. We told SEGA that we are sick of the nostalgia pandering when we spat on Sonic 4, and left it for dead. And what does SEGA do? Shove the exact same garbage down our throat. Give us Green Hill for the 20th time. Shoehorn more nostalgia in for nostalgia's sake. Change gameplay styles when the previous one was wokring so well. And we're the ones being indecisive? We're the ones not making our points clear? What else is there to do outside of no longer buying the games?
     
  16. People have every right to complain. That Green Hill clip shows zero creativity or originality.
     
  17. Beltway

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    People don't complain for the sake of it when Sonic Team does something new, people complain because when Sonic Team does something new, they do it poorly almost every time. Stuff like Shadow's mission system, Werehog, and pre-Sonic Unleashed gameplay of other characters that you've described usually have little to do with Sonic gameplay, are things few people asked for, take up a huge chunk of the game, and aren't even fun in their own right. Sonic 4 meanwhile completely missed the point of what people expect from a classic Sonic sequel, with Episode II in particular showing Sonic 4 as a whole didn't turn out that way by mistake, it showed how little Sonic Team/Dimps were actually interested in making that style of Sonic gameplay. All of the above, among other mistakes, are the main reason people are being skeptical of Forces, Sonic Team does not have a good track record of doing new things well (or even returning to old things well, in the case of Sonic 4).

    And meeting the demands of the fanbase at once is probably something they shouldn't be doing they should be doing with each game in the first place. Mania is clearly being developed specifically as a game for classic fans, and most classic fans would say it's delivering on that front. Zelda's Breath of the Wild wasn't an attempt to be an open-world reboot of Zelda while also still trying to retain elements of the former 3D games started by OoT. The upcoming Mario Odyssey isn't trying to be both a 64/Sunshine sequel and a 2D NSMB installment.

    Forces? It wants to be a boost game, but also a classic game, while also having a new playstyle thrown into it and having a returning game-centric gimmick (Wisps). Maybe some other team could pull it off, but if Sonic Team's track record of execution is anything, it's arguably going to be game with no sense of priorities, and be lacking in cohesive game direction.

    And while Sonic Team not developing Mania is a reason Mania is arguably a part some are more excited for Mania, it's not simply because it's another developer; otherwise the Sonic Boom games should had been critical hits. Sonic Team(/Dimps) has shown in the past they don't understand or care about classic Sonic gameplay, while the new team in charge of developing it have not only shown to care that they do with what we've seen in Mania, their past credentials have shown that they are people from this very community who have made a hobby of cutting their teeth on classic Sonic projects--some of which were so good they were picked up for an official release.
     
  18. There's a big, big difference in saying that some design choices weren't good, or good enough, and doing what the fandom is doing. Green eyes? Ew. Eyelids? Ew. Voice Actors? Ew. Sonic's height? Ew. Sonic Adventure 3 esque with grotesque mishandling of a butchered development cycle? Ew.

    The love isn't there. It's turning into a factory. If there's no love, then they may as well close shop.

    Frankly, Mania might as well be called Megamix. Is what we're seeing good? Sure. But it's predictable. There's no innovation. Nothing that goes "Wow"! Flying Battery is in there, "Dust Hill" for all intensive purposes is in there. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying that it isn't groundbreaking. It strokes nostalgia. I have my issues with the level design for Mania, from what I've seen, it suffers from "Where the fuck am I going" much like Sonic CD did. Just gimmicks, nostalgic art, and to me, aimless level design.

    Sonic 1/2/ was a success because it redefined what platforming was. Loops? Corkscrews? Springs? Adventure was successful because it pushed the boundaries of what a 3D platformer was. Being chased by a big ass whale? Cool stuff! It was no longer about hold right and jump.

    While the fanbase is based in the west, Sega of America is clearly fucked in the head. Instead of sitting down and drafting something that will blow everything out of the water, they're just lollygagging with their thumbs up their asses, milking Sonic for money. We haven't had a solid game since Unleashed. But there's no consistency. They don't refine what they lay down.

    Green Hill in Generations, Green Hill in Mania, Green Hill in Forces. Why aren't people outraged with Green Hill in Mania? And Flying Battery? It's the same fucking level with some sprinkles on it? It's not any different. There's nothing new.
     
  19. RikohZX

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    To also be fair, part of those 4 years was basically improving upon, rebuilding and restructuring Hedgehog Engine 2, compared to Generations which reused the same engine as Unleashed and Colors (and as we all know due to the FxPipeline, actually had inferior graphical effects in some ways or even some engine capabilities not implemented at all).
     
  20. ancara

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    Honestly, I feel like we all need to cool down and not judge an entire game off of 10 seconds of footage. No point in jumping to conclusions before we even see something else. And sure, you can be upset over how GHZ looks, but let's not allow things to get so bad that shark week has to happen again with a revengeance, right?

    Have some positivity, and let's enjoy the ride whilst it lasts. Who know, we may get some crazy good surprises, or it could even turn to 06 levels of "so bad it's hilarious" by the end. :v: