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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Am I the only person who thought that Lost World had a pretty good system, it was just the level design that made it not feel very fun to play? I'm kind of hoping that the third gameplay style ends up being a revisit to Lost World's mechanics.

    Hear me out. We were told that we'll be getting three gameplay styles. Sonic Generations has shown that they can do a really good job at the Boost gameplay style, so we're relatively safe there. Classic Sonic is heavily implying that we're going to get some 2-D levels like before. The physics weren't really there last time, but I think that Sonic Team can do a passable job. Remember how Generations ended with Classic Sonic getting the idea for the Homing Attack by having watched Modern Sonic do it, resulting in a sort of stable time loop in that regard? If we can't get Classic-style physics in this new game, I wouldn't mind a Tag-Action-removed setup like Sonic 4: Episode 2. Just tone down the Spin-Dash a bit and maybe let us have the Elemental Shields as in-game collectible power-ups instead of how Generations did it as equipped items.

    Lost World parkour could potentially work as the third gameplay style, and be a relatively safe way for Sonic Team to continue tinkering with the idea. Remove the Super Mario Galaxy-esque level design, and give us some more realistic terrain to maneuver around. Justify it with an opening shot that scrolls backwards along the level a short ways towards Sonic, with Sonic having an expression or saying a quip to give the feeling of "Oh shit, there's not enough room for running speed. Now what?". For instance, an area of the opening city where we see the buildings and rubble too close together with no open areas to run.

    Just balance the amount that players are given. Don't make it as heavy as the Werehog in Unleashed. If Sonic Team wants to go ham on some crazy level design and really push the limits of what they think they can do with the parkour system, make them optional levels that we unlock as we go. Another idea could be since there's three styles of gameplay, that we only need to pick two of the three per Zone to progress. Imagine if the Missions in Generations were set up so that you could either to 3 Classic and 3 Modern to move on, or you could do all 5 Classic OR all 5 Modern missions, assuming they keep the Mission progression. Something like that could make it so that if a certain aspect of the game falls flat, it can be ignored by the player and the game is still enjoyable.

    - - - - -

    Off-Topic, but now that I'm thinking about it, just like how the Unleashed Day Stages were ported to Generations, I wonder how well the Night stages would port to Lost World. I should look into that.
     
  2. Lobotomy

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    The problem with Lost World isn't necessarily the slow as fuck pace, or the terrible control scheme, so much as how little freedom of movement you're given in 'Parkour'. It's simply not fun when you're not really able to chain wallruns, or hop to another wall dynamically, or grab a ledge that you'd be able to access otherwise, because your trajectory is essentially set in stone. It's almost as if they made the gameplay style for a different game first.

    On the ground, you're not given any sense of momentum. Let go of the control stick in the two main movement modes, running, or jumping, and you stop dead. That's not okay for a Sonic game. Ever. Trying to speedrun SLW is a boring fucking nightmare. The spindash is not fast, and you're given no control over your speed. Your range of allowed pace is within the parameters of brisk walk, to slow jog. It's not fun.
     
  3. Blue Blood

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    That's because Lost World was a poorly made Mario game that was masquerading as a Sonic game.
     
  4. RikohZX

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    It didn't help that Lost World's level design either never accentuated the few unique qualities the game had, such as giving you easy Wisp outs for sections that would otherwise require the Parkour (and often it's only for a Red Ring with a reward that isn't worth SLW's hell in getting them all) and being filled with generic platforming and straightaways, or were based entirely around gimmicks that usually weren't very fun. It says something that some of the most exhilarating levels of SLW were rail grinding levels that ultimately weren't even all that great compared to Donkey Kong Country's minecart stages.
    But I digress; Sonic Team know how to make Boost levels well, even if Unleashed was absolutely brutal with its difficulty at times for the Daytime stages. If anything, I'm more worried about the third playstyle since I feel they have probably refined Classic Sonic. And i'll fully admit I preferred Modern Sonic's stages over Classic Sonic's in Generations in that regard.
     
  5. Lobotomy

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    I was trying to be subtle about it, but yeah, exactly. The aesthetic is the only 'Sonic' thing about the game at all. The most off-putting thing I didn't mention previously though is the fact that there's no power band, no acceleration, you are either walking, or running, with nothing in between. Very un-fluid.
     
  6. AutiMatic

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    I agree with TheKazeBlade's analysis.

    I thought the point of a 3D Sonic game was to take what makes a classic Sonic game great, and translate that to 3D terms? I hate sounding like a purist, but physics are what make Sonic games "Sonic" (complimented by level design). Sonic Team won't need to shoehorn gimmicks to compensate if they focused on what made Sonic great to begin with.

    Sonic stopping dead in his tracks when no controller input is given, that's a red flag. Sonic standing perfectly still up a curved surface or on a hill, is also a red flag *Looking at you Sonic 4*. Or uncurling while rolling through loops *Stares at Classic Sonic in Generations*

    No seriously, the fact that you couldn't retain bounce height when jumping on enemies/objects from high up, was a big slap in the face. Why even call it "Classic Sonic" with all the "fixed" trajectories and force controlled approaches to enemy/object placement? XD

    Is inertia, momentum, and gravity really that difficult? Sonic is supposed to be momentum based platformer with speed being a reward, and precision being an acquired skill, yeah? Notice Mario's consistency from 2D to 64, to Galaxy and beyond? When I jump on an enemy, I know how Mario is going to respond in almost every instance across games.

    Sonic Team doesn't know what Sonic is, but they know boost works. 3D Boost gameplay is the son of Adventure style gameplay. It's like, we know 2+2=4, but Sonic Team was left behind with the number 4 from previous members and devs, and don't know where that answer came from, and not knowing they can add 2 to get 6! Forces may be a passable game, but the creative direction scares me.
     
  7. Mastered Realm

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    Well, the classic games wouldn't get an A grade on physics, because, in an U shaped pit, you'll always bounce higher than when you entered it when curled into a ball, and that doesn't make any sense!

    But at least it was fun.
     
  8. qwertysonic

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    If you just slide down the U-shape you don't, but if you hold down you do. I always assumed that holding down was akin to adding for energy to the system. Sonic is spinning on his own accord rather than just letting gravity do its thing.
     
  9. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    But if you held down, you would automatically make a contrary force on the way upwards, so no effect should be visible. Unless you pressed V when going downwards then ^ when going upwards, but that's not actually necessary in the game.
     
  10. AutiMatic

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    U-shapes and half pipes make sense to approach as curled, since it's almost like an accumulation of centrifugal force based on the gravity and momentum when the downward curve is approached from its surface angle. Sonic physics don't have to be relative to real life, but it should make sense fundamentally, for how Sonic traverses through tropes and the world around him regardless of his abilities/power-ups.

    Until Sonic Team figures out how to translate this to 3D, they are always going to rely on a "mechanic" to base Sonic's movement/gameplay around as a core, instead as an innovation. Take away boost and Wisps and what type of gameplay would you get? Runny McHoming Attack & On Rail Boost Padder, The Game: 1st level Straight Line Zone, followed by Death Pit Palace Zone? That's practically SA1 through Heroes lmao!

    I'm not trying to bash anything. I'm just a skeptical diehard fan and consumer. It's frustrating to see pieces of classic Sonic physics incorporated but divvied between the titles leaning up to Forces, yet no game exists applying/executing them correctly (albeit ST will emulate them for a pseudo experience).

    My point is, you fix the physics, you create Sonic's core gameplay, at which to develop levels/tropes and abilities (like boost and parkour) and power-ups based around. If that is established, they could incorporate other playable characters for replay value (because their gameplay would be similar to and based off of Sonic). That will relieve a burden on devs trying to force gimmicks all on Sonic just to make levels playable, or force feed the players a specific experience.
     
  11. Tiller

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    You know it bugs me we haven't seen any other character using 3D boost gameplay other than Sonic. We've only seen Shadow doing something similar in his Generations rival fight. It's like they crafted everything around what they believe is Sonic's 'canon' speedy powerset and characters like Knuckles or Tails with their respective abilities can't fit into it, especially given the level design. Even Blaze, who's abilities would translate well into both the boost gameplay and level design is MIA. I get Sonic Team are extremely hesitant about multiple characters given how many people screeched they were the problem for the longest time, but its almost been a decade now of Sonic...and some other version of Sonic.

    The gameplay in the first level stretch we've seen so far is extremely early but we can extrapolate that boosting less powerful and plentiful like in Colors. Unfortunately there doesn't look like there is anything new to supplement the boost that we can see. I'm not sure why the boosting gameplay can't coexist with some terrain interaction to spice things up. Instead of sliding sonic could roll down that first dip in the road to speed up a little bit. Maybe hitting the ever present 'pace keeping' gimmicks launches you faster if you're doing something like rolling? I don't know, they need to give it some more sort of depth. Without the boost the entire gameplay falls apart.
     
  12. Sean Evans

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    I agree to the point that it's what defined the series style, but I think you can still have a pretty solid and fantastic game without the momentum mechanics. I don't really like the boost formula, but at this point I don't really care if they stick with it. I'm just tired with them basically being okay with the franchise's image and reputation being average. There's no drive or ambition in Sonic Team at all. There's passion, but it's placed in such superficial areas. Back then you could immediately recognize "Sonic" based on gameplay, visuals, and sound. It had built such a strong sense of style and character in such a short time, and everything was so well thought out. But now all of that is just gone, and we end up getting the same old shitty but functional gameplay, uninspired but pretty looking environments, and generic but nice sounding music (which I'd never accuse of being bad, but a lot of it just sounds so drab at this point). What really kills this is all of the inconsistent fluff to fill that void, that you kind of have to get used to. New characters, gimmicks, and themes that are so poorly managed and utilized, that you have to wonder why they even bothered introducing them. They barely even let classic Sonic evolve past whatever worked well in previous games. Out of everything, I enjoyed Colors the most because it had the beginnings of an interesting new take on the franchise. It sort of had something going with it's tropes and design, and at least the idea of stuff like the wisp was interesting. But they dropped all the interesting stuff and only brought back the elements that could be easily recycled for newer games.

    There's no compelling gameplay, no bold visual design, no unique sound. It's all just stuff that "sort of" defines the series. When the closest thing you can compare your Flagship 3D Platformer Franchise to is a racing game, that's pretty sad. I know the whole brand identity thing has been talked to death at this point, but that's really what I dislike about the series. It's to scared to let Sonic be anything because they placed themselves in a corner where even they don't know what it is anymore. You can't just throw "classic" gameplay in there and expect a winner. There's more to it than that.
     
  13. Lobotomy

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    You know, I was playing with this idea in my head a few weeks back, and I came to the conclusion that from a game design perspective, you could satiate a LOT of whiners, by giving Sonic that Boost gameplay, but give Tails and Knuckles a refined Sonic Adventure-type game-mode, with less emphasis on speed, and more on platforming, grabbing rings, and fighting badniks. This way, you still have familiar gameplay and controls, you have unique character feel, a slower pace, and with that, a separate goal than 'go down the corridor really really fast until it's over' (like what was attempted with the werehog, but that felt like padding).

    Now, what should not be done with that, is to use the Sonic Adventure series game modes. Knuckles in Sonic Adventure felt great to play as, but Emerald Hunting fucking sucks, objectively, and should never ever ever come back. Emerald Hunting always felt like lazy as fuck game design to me, like they didn't know what to do with him, and as a result, didn't care what they did, so long as he had character representation in the game. Really, I don't think it'd be that hard to come up with something. To be perfectly honest, though, finding a gameplay mode for Tails is hard, because using him in Sonic Stages, like Windy Valley, is just boring. They need stage designs that feel right for the characters, and a realistic goal for those characters, that isn't tedious, or un-sonic.
     
  14. Knucklez

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    The way I see Sonic's future panning out from this point on is, if Mania doesn't do well (which from the looks of it, it will) and Forces really doesn't do well, I can't see why Sega should even bother anymore.

    I mean the same could have been said a decade ago after 06' and the slew of sloppy Wii titles pre-Colors. But then Colors came along and surprised us. When that Generations trailer with Modern/Classic running side-by-side came out, I fucking cried, because Sonic is that much a part of me. For god sake, I found and joined Retro here because of Generations. I found out and learned about ROMs/emulators and was able to play S3K again and discovered that Hey, there's a Sonic 1, 2, CD, and MORE!

    So when we got S4E2 and RT, I lost my shit even more because the franchise seemed to have really picked up steam again. Then all that got overshadowed by Lost World's lackluster-ness and then defecated on by Boom, and (not the most of you care but) Sonic 4 was dumped on a cliffhanger without an Episode 3. So because it's gone downhill on consoles, they're only creative choice was to pull the nostalgia card AGAIN with Mania by being Taxman's little bitch and now this by dragging Classic Sonic back into it like a Generations sequel. Don't get me wrong though, I cried like a kid watching that Mania trailer too.

    25 years into the franchise's lifespan, it's time to consider whether there's any tread left on Sonic's shoes. I haven't touched anything Sonic-related the past 2 years except for and during hacking contests. I can't feel vested in it anymore if the nostalgia card will only get pulled as a last resort rather than being a standard. It's obvious little to nothing they've tried in taking the franchise in a new direction has worked well, so either stick to the old formula or just stop.
     
  15. Deef

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    Nothing about Forces has interested me. It's milking classic Sonic again. It's got boost and homing again. I don't see what we are supposed to get interested in.

    It's a real shame too, because no other platforming character has the ability to play around with terrain and gravity like Sonic, but the funnest thing they can come up with is going in straight lines real fast and jumps that aim for you.
     
  16. Dark Sonic

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    Those things if you enjoyed them before :v:
     
  17. Atendega

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    Believe it or not, folks, some people really like modern Sonic games. Aren't opinions neat? :eng101:
     
  18. AutiMatic

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    Ironically, I do love the modern style boost gameplay! As a speed runner you try to get the timing right and tight for input based on Sonic's trajectory in relation to placement in the level. It really allows for you to see how the devs created the levels anticipating the player to move, and it's brilliant on its own regard. Sonic Rush sold boost to me, Unleashed sealed the deal in plausibility.

    I agree with Tiller's sentiments about how Sonic is to interact with terrain! Sonic running downhill should be faster than on flat. Sonic rolling downhill should be faster than running. This rollerball physics concept should still remain an absolute rule of Sonic gameplay in 3D as it did in 2D, especially since every playable Sonic character can/should be able to do the same thing and perform the same way (just like in SA 1 *funny*)! Boost shouldn't be a button mapped function, but a reward for Sonic specifically for maintaining a momentum threshold (ala time travel in Sonic CD). Rolling would make Sonic & friends eventually come to a stop if the terrain doesn't feed it and jump trajectories from rolling should be stiff as they were in 2D games. While in curled state, Sonic & friends are virtually the same as boost (pseudo invincible). However if boost was a reward from maintaining speed (think Super Sonic vs Perfect Chaos in SA1) for Sonic only, it would allow for the advantage of having full control of your jumps, and self perpetuating movement not relying on terrain.

    This would give power ups like Speed Shoes and elemental shields purpose, function, and applications in modern gameplay and level settings without sacrificing homing attack. (Think of homing attack to fire shield air boost, to homing attack, to fire shield boost-chains to access areas otherwise unexplorable by Sonic for shortcuts across a dangerous path). Of course, Tails and Knuckles can't use shield powers, as they have their own core abilities.

    Ideally, Sonic Lost World level build (branching paths and routes along parallel or adjacent surfaces but hold off on the Mario Galaxy sphere, and tube fetish) with a Classic Sonic Generations segment ratio, may be pull from SegaSonic Arcade or Sonic 3D Blast for level progression and it should offer a Sonic Utopia-esque experience. Example: Lost World (level in SA1 Knuckles version). Fill that room with platforms and traversable surfaces, more paths, content, and loops, instead of that empty space in middle. This beats creating kilometers worth of stretched land for Sonic to pass through in the course of 3 minutes, which is extremely taxing, just for the sake of the boost mechanic. It also allows for a "room-type" level build as opposed to a corridor type, allowing for height and depth to be fleshed out, to contain multiple individual "race tracks" that can be choosen by the player at intersecting portions leading to another room with the same concept. The player would truly get more bang for their buck per square mile of a level without relying on heavy automation.

    I only explained that much because Sonic Team has incorporated these concepts in their titles already, so putting it together is plausible.

    PS: Chaos Emeralds should be equippable by character, offering a buff or bonus or ability individually, as well as in conjunction or in combinations with 1 another: equipping green may allow for user to Chaos Control to next checkpoint/closest goal ring. Can only be used once in level and cost 50 rings. White emerald may allow for spike immunity. Equipping just both = ? And equipping all 7 = Super of course. Stick em in special stage, or randomize their in level appearances...whatever.

    TL;DR
    Sonic Forces is so far revealing Sonic Team is building off a shallow foundation, and in unsafe directions in spite of having everything they need to identify Sonic in 3D and make him just as prominent as Mario is in his own content/world.

    EDIT: Sonic Mania is dedicated to Classic Sonic. Why add him to Sonic Forces? The 3rd gameplay style may be Eggman tactical "drop hazards for Sonic in level" like a castle defender game trying to keep Sonic from reaching the end. Or it may be....fishing.
     
  19. rata

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    I couldn't imagine a TD game based on Sonic though //forums.sonicretro.org/public/style_emoticons/default/v.png.
     
  20. runde

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    What was I was supposed to do again?
    I guess if I would attempt to predict (or make) the 3rd playstyle, I would try another crack at the Parkour, but not with Sonic...


    KNUCKLES DON'T CHUCKLE. HE GOES HARDCORE WITH THE PARKOUR.