Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. TimmiT


    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Member

    This fanmade trailer is surprisingly well edited. Sonic going through the rings being timed to the music is pretttttty good.
  2. Beltway


    The most grateful Sonic fan of all time this week Member
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    Artwork and classes
    Maybe they can try making a 3D platformer that wasn't around boost and boost management while also keeping the boost playstyle around as a side-series? I understand boost gameplay has its fans and I'm not fighting for it to be discarded. I will disagree with the notion however that it's the ideal playstyle for 3D Sonic and should be the (sole) foundation going forward.

    I mean, Mario just returned to having sandbox-styled 3D games with the upcoming Odyssey after a shift to more linear 3D games like the Galaxy / 3D Series titles, and I'm sure Nintendo will likely alternate between those two styles in the future. Or for another example (though not necessarily the best comparison), the Megaman X series to Megaman Classic. Something similar can be done for 3D Sonic--keep boost games around (personally I think they would work as being branded as a racing series, IDK); while also having a 3D Sonic playstyle that wasn't so on-rails and speed-oriented, and got back closer to having momentum-based gameplay.

    As much as the Adventure games are (deservedly) panned nowadays for genre roulette and technically/graphically aging like milk, I will say the first Adventure actually had a decent 3D base for Sonic--the only problem was due to its twitchy controls and jank/bugginess. Adventure 2 tightened up the controls a bit but was also way more automated, and as far as I'm concerned the formula never got better from that point forward. Personally I think a return to Adventure 1 base that got the proper modern polish and bugfixing it never received would be an acceptable format for 3D Sonic, but apparently the Adventure games are off-limits scorched earth policy on all aspects now.

    Well, that's just one option to non-boost 3D Sonic anyway. Normally I'd be much more eager to point to Utopia as my ideal template, but every time Utopia is brought up, people come in to write the entire project off purely on the nonlinear level design alone. Apparently how it controls or how the gameplay is means absolutely jack because it's pseudo-open world, and that's terrible, and thus momentum-based 3D Sonic gameplay is now impossible. Even when what was released was simply a tech demo and the developer said later builds would be used to make more traditional linear levels in future builds.

    (Not trying to single you out in particular DustArma, it's just a very common sentiment I've seen around other boards that I've honestly am very tired of.

    But not as tiring as this...)

    This is one of the most obnoxious and pervasive myths regarding Sonic gameplay today and I really wish it would stop. Can someone please tell me how any 3D Sonic game in the past 18 years following Adventure 1 was an honest-to-god meaningful attempt at bringing Genesis mechanics to a 3D space? Like, Adventure 2 had momentum-based rails, sure, but otherwise almost every game since has been a shift towards the opposite direction of being more automated, scripted, and restrictive in movement than the last. To the point that it even started spilling over into the 2D games and was a big reason why Sonic 4 turned out to be a complete antithesis of classic Sonic gameplay despite being billed as a direct sequel. Even Lost World with all of its hype on parkour elements had virtually no momentum, the actual implementation of the parkour is grid-based and holds hardly any flow to its movement. Never mind the whole game treats it as an afterthought regardless, because the whole game's entire game design focus is completely scatterbrained to hell and back between parkour, planetoid levels, gimmick levels, and Wisps among many other things.

    And I know some people are going to chime in with smug rebuttals about wanting "pixel-perfect 3D translations" like Marble Madness or Super Monkey Ball but no, that's not what I'm asking for. If I did I wouldn't even be pointing to Adventure 1 as a decent example at all. Something that at least understood the basic components behind Genesis gameplay shouldn't really be a tall order. Mario 64 isn't a direct adaptation of 2D Mario titles (or at least, isn't as much as one as the later 3D Series), but it holds true to the basics of core Mario gameplay down pat, and its why its pointed as the example to follow in regards to bringing a 2D series into 3D. Yeah you have to make changes to accommodate the third dimension when bringing a series from two dimensions to three, but you don't have to transform it into a different beast entirely. :/

    EDIT: Sorry for the passion I may be expressing here serpx, you can take it as a rant to the air, and not a rant against you in particular. I don't hold any apologies though for the bewilderment I'm expressing on this particular topic here, though, which I'm honestly not expressing enough.
  3. Cooljerk


    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    Im drowning in hyperbole. This is the video game equivalent of this:

  4. Rika Chou

    Rika Chou

    Tech Member
    I loved Generations and this so far seems like basically Generations 2, so I'm happy.
  5. Cooljerk


    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    This exchange in particular is funny. One person says "The games are too hard!! Absolutely nobody can play them because they are so insanely fast that you fling into everything and die!" And another person chimes in with "I agree! The games are ridiculously easy. Just hold the boost button and you can't lose!"

  6. synchronizer


    I think that some people forget that you don't have to hold the boost button on your first playthrough. What I enjoyed most about Unleashed's levels paired with the strict ranking system was learning and mastering the stages. No one expects you to be perfect the first time.
  7. My only problem with the boost system was way the fuck back in Unleashed, and that was mostly because the upgrade system made Sonic slippery as hell when Speed was maxed out.
  8. mitsame


    I'm content with how it's coming out with what little we've seen. I'd prefer stock capsules to wisps, purely because I think wisps are more contextual to colors and general abstract/space-y environments (which this doesn't appear to be), but I'm not gonna lose sleep over it. If anything seeing white wisps be the boost replenisher means that boost will be more limited like in Colors, which is nice.

    I get that boost gameplay isn't The Best but either way I'm happy it's back and not some brand new untested formula. I'd rather Sonic stick with what worked in the past and refine it than jump from style to style, and boost has gotten the most polish compared to others. It'd be cool to see a return of another type of gameplay but for now I'm fine sticking with boost. We don't even know what the third gameplay style is, for all we know that very well could be Adventure.

    I like how the city came out from the original teaser a lot, though- way more Ssonic-like in design and seeing the huge Death Egg robots tear shit up in the background makes it feel really cool and honestly cinematic in a way, that's a really cool shot. It also looked a little bit like in some areas there were other paths you could take, though I'm not holding my breath, and I'm sure there'll be more in the latter half of the level when we get around to seeing it.
  9. I apologize in advance for this, but my colleague heard this theme and said it sounds just like this:

    ...Not quite, IMO, but still funny.
  10. ICEknight


    Researcher Researcher
    Are you guys deliberately ignoring the fact that there's currently three different Sonics in the franchise?


  11. Turbohog


    God. I think it's already dumb to have two Sonic's, but if they include Sonic Boom they're absolute idiots.
  12. ancara


    To chip in on the 3D Sonic debate, I feel like the main problem (which also is the same for many other devs) is that almost no one seems to know how to actually into psychics properly. Not for booltets, jiggle physics or all that other fun modern stuff the past billion shootan games use, but more-so actual physics and movement for the character(s) the player controls. Either due to computing problems (as one friend of mine told me), or because people can't into math enough to make it work smoothly. Feels just like once someone can crack the code of making genesis-like physics work in a 3D plane without it going hilariously wonky in the process, then the real fun begins.

    But as for the game itself here, it's a wait and see for me until more stuff is shown before I get hype.
  13. synchronizer


    Didn't someone say that the third play-style doesn't involve Sonic, or am I incorrect?
  14. TheKazeblade


    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    I want to have confidence that they won't go this route because the current gameplay is looking so good. But then again, they grossly misinterpreted why fans went crazy over Classic Sonic in Generations and tried to replicate it in Forces. So I really don't know how to feel.

    I feel confident at this point the game itself will be fun. I love the boost games, so I'm confident that I'll enjoy it, and also that it will be well-received critically. My issues are purely in preference. I've said it before, but if all Sonic continues to be is a love-letter to the nostalgic days of the franchise's golden era, it loses all relevance outside of that. That's why I'm frustrated Sega felt the need to include previous games' levels in Mania, and why Classic Sonic's inclusion in Forces bugs me so. They keep burying the lead when it comes to the modern games; why do they always feel like they need to supplement an alternative gameplay style instead of just doing the one gameplay style extremely well?

    Having 2 Sonics to cater to 2 audiences in a single game is not the kind of move a confident company makes. It feels like they're legitimately scared to let the modern formula carry its own weight. The only game to even attempt it was Colors, and even then, they still avoided the issue significantly by making 80% of that game 2D. They keep 'hedging their bets' for some reason, when most of us, save for the most stringent, can at least agree the modern 3D gameplay is at the very least competent and at best pretty phenomenal.

    I loved Generations. But here's the thing. Bringing in the nostalgic Classic Sonic once for a 3D game is a celebration. Doing it twice is a crutch. Leave Classic to a 2D subset of games following Mania. Let him thrive in that environment under the loving hand of Taxman, Stealth and Pagoda. Don't shoehorn him into a context where his gameplay (using Generations for this context) is included in a neutered state to make up for either a lack of developer confidence or perhaps their laziness. Keep Classic Sonic in the environment in which he will thrive, keep Modern Sonic in an environment in which he'll thrive, don't compromise them by combining them. Unless it's a game that is a singular gameplay style that meets in the middle that doesn't use 2 Sonics instead of 1 purely for the gimmick of it.

    I'm done ranting. I just want the Sonic franchise to be confident in a formula that works and can continue to be refined instead of having to rely on a nostalgic or alternate gameplay crutch for every main outing. If that's the case, that's pathetic.
  15. S0LV0


    Sonic Generations Helpdesk Tech Member
    Abusing SMPS
    Not sure what to say to this "boost gameplay is unplayable" notion, because to me it boils down to being unwilling to adapt to a skill floor. Fact is the formula is unlike anything in any other game franchise (besides maybe racing games but not even really that), so there's no muscle memory to carry from anything else like there is with WWII FPS #345. Calling it niche is somewhat misleading too, since Mario suffered a similar problem when transitioning to 3D and it was really only because of the added complexity that the gameplay introduced. That's all it really is imo, people shy away from something to which they have to uniquely adapt. I suspect that's why the controls look a little dumbed down in the shown footage, to try and ease some people back into it. I'm sure that's also why we're back to having five million gameplay styles.
  16. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

    Working on my art!
    I love how Wisps and Classic Sonic are such sore plot points, but yet no one blinks an eye about the moon exploding, Shadow being dead then not being dead, and Station square being rebuilt in .2 seconds after Perfect Chaos.

    Of course they're going with what worked for this game. Isn't that what 70% of 3D Sonic bitching boils down to? Them abandoning everything that they made each game in an effort to find the perfect game that they don't know how to make. And then they rinse and repeat. Adventure styles, Heroes style, Storybook series style, Lost World Style, Boost Style, Boom style... sorta. And now they make another game based off the formulas that were well received and we hate it all the sudden? What do you expect them to do? This is a business, it is smart of them to do what works. Don't like this game? Well that's what Mania is for. Give them a chance to expand upon a base they already have. Hell I just played through Generations tonight and had a fun time playing it, it's the only modern Sonic game I consistently go back to. Isn't this the ideal? A modern and classic duality where they can coexist at the same time?

    That's what I liked about Generations. To me it said what Sonic is. There's classic Sonic and there's modern Sonic. One harks back to the game style of Sonic 1 - 3K, the other is the only successful modern era formula they've ever done (Keep in mind, when I say modern era, I exclude the Adventure series. That was early 3D gaming at this point and while it worked then, it's somewhat generic now). It wiped the slate clean of all the stupid shit they ever did and finally put the franchise in a cohesive package. It gave some fans the finger, but they had to do it at some point.

    I think they're confident about Boost and Classic at this point. What that 3rd gameplay is idk. It could be as simple as the Tornado mini game from Unleashed and account for 2 levels, it could be a resurrection of the Adventure style gameplay, or it could be something new. At least 66% of the game is based off stuff they've tried and have had good feedback on. This is safe experimentation IMO and I'm open to it. However I'm pretty confident this new gameplay style is something we've seen before that they're willing to build upon, as this whole game seems like they just said "hey, what have we done that people have actually liked at some point? Significant story, Classic Sonic, boost gameplay, wisps? Yea throw them all in there."
  17. DustArma


    Santiago, Chile
    Learning Python.
    Needs more awkwardly edited ring collection sounds

  18. DustinVG


    Super Ancient Keys
    The game is looking pretty good to me so far. I liked Lost World, but I'm not opposed a Generations 2 in the slightest.

    Third playable character is puzzling, definitely. Personally, I think it'd be interesting if it were Adventure or Lost World Sonic, but I have a sneaking suspicion it'll be Boom Sonic.
  19. PicklePower


    Wiki Sysop
    I'm not making much of an argument about the level of difficulty. From what I've played, the gameplay just isn't fun, interesting, or requires you to make decisions that give that reward you beyond not dying. I'm probably talking like someone who hasn't played these kinds of games much because I haven't.

    As far as I'm concerned these games are a whole different series by Sega where Sonic just happens to be the main character. They have none of the gameplay elements that originally drew me to the series. For that I need to just look forward to Sonic Mania.
  20. Cooljerk


    NotEqual Tech, Inc - VR & Game Dev Oldbie
    Very evident.

    I don't really want to spend the topic making a point by point rebuke, but to your specific comments, no, you cannot play the game by holding the boost button and not pressing anything else (and I'm baffled about how you can believe claiming that isn't making a comment on the difficulty of the game), and in these games, stages have alternate paths that can unlock things like additional artwork, abilities, music, even entire bonus levels and super sonic.

    The levels in these games aren't completely linear. Even going back to unleashed, these stages had multiple paths. In the progression to colors and generations, the amount of varying paths, and difference between said paths, have grown with each game. There is no reason to believe this particular game isn't going to continue the trend. Even watching the video, you can see a few alternate paths the player doesn't take (like when he ignores a lower path to glide along the zipline). Just like in the old Genesis games, getting to the highest alternate paths (which, in addition to containing unlockables also cuts down on your time) requires the most dexterity and fastest reflexes to meet tight timing requirements. You're supposed to play the zones multiple times to get good enough to reach those paths.