don't click here

Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Battons

    Battons

    Shining Force Fan Member
    I dislike forces because of what it wasn’t not what it is. All they had to do was make a follow up to generations with new assets and that seemed like such an easy thing to accomplish that when it didn’t happen it left a sour taste in my mouth.
     
  2. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Why is Tekken 6 afraid of Tekken 7? Member
    8,552
    1,423
    93
    Los Angeles, 2029
    Aiming for Genbu!
    The biggest fumble for me is that they put all this effort towards Rent-a-Tard with an intent of sharing your creations and then did absolutely nothing significant with it. No cool multiplayer modes (offline or online) no co-op, no versus, no trading, nothing.
    Ever since Unleashed I've been screaming for a full fledged multiplayer racing mode using the boost formula and they didn't give me squat outside. Forces should have been THE game to pull it off.
     
  3. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    I want to use a personal anecdote on this topic, because I think it's interesting.

    One of my best friends doesn't play Sonic games at all, or even any games. And he finds it really ridiculous and inherently amusing that some Sonic games have serious stories. He finds the story of Sonic Adventure 2 specifically really funny and over the top. I've talked to him about it many times and he always laughs and expresses bewilderment that anyone takes Sonic stories seriously. As soon as he sees the cartoony animals talking seriously he just can't help himself but find it ridiculous. And I do understand it on some level.

    He also finds serious anime stories inherently ridiculous because you have these tropey cliche anime characters who look so over the top cool dealing with such melodramatic things. I showed him the Kasumi dance scene from Persona 5 Royal (which I think is beautiful) and while he appreciated the animation he found the anime presentation very amusing. Saying he found "the cliche anime noises" funny. So for him, finding mascot platforming stories ridiculous is not really different to finding JRPG stories ridiculous. And with JRPGs, as well written as they are, I can understand why people also find them ridiculous.

    I think it was @Aerosol who made the Undertale comparison. I'm pretty sure my friend would like Undertale but would similarly find it ridiculous for both its cartoony animal and anime aesthetic. I think both the anime and mascot platformer approaches have the clash between cartoony unseriousness with dramatic realism that makes some people find the stories difficult to take seriously.

    So I guess what I'm saying is that I do understand why some people think that mascot platformers shouldn't have serious stories because it's too ridiculous. But I'd contend that you could easily apply it to more traditional game genres which have pedigree for serious stories but would be viewed with amusement by those outside of gaming communities (JRPGs are a prime example).
     
  4. Forte

    Forte

    I speak better after three beers Member
    562
    215
    43
    Poland
    Oh, You too?
    I've been dreaming about a game that took SA2 Sonic Vs Shadow stages, added boost, on foot quicktime fights and a bunch of stuff that teenage me wanted for 15 years now.

    Yeah, quick time. Because I'm old, and back then it was the bees knees.
     
  5. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Why is Tekken 6 afraid of Tekken 7? Member
    8,552
    1,423
    93
    Los Angeles, 2029
    Aiming for Genbu!
    He sounds lame

    And as soon as I make this dumbass post

    https://twitter.com/sonicstadium/status/1607763041000771585

    LFG!!!!
    + - nothing will come of it and I will remain an empty shell  

    I'd go further and make it 16 player mayhem of a bunch of Rent-a-Furs smashing into each other. Boost formula is screaming for an F-Zero style treatment spin off. Enough of this cart stuff, give me a new Mad Dash Racing. And make lizard an option with green skin and purple spots.
     
  6. charcoal

    charcoal

    Be Cool, Be Wild, and Be Groovy Member
    1,046
    972
    93
    I always found complaints about Sonic stories being 'too serious' at least a tad silly because even the games called too dark like SA2 or Frontiers, both have plenty of comedic relief and joking moments, they're way less 'grimdark' than some would make them out to be. They're no darker than, say, Super Paper Mario, which also takes itself pretty seriously plenty of the time, but also has plenty of lighthearted fluffy moments. Just like SA2 and Frontiers.

    And yet you never see anyone complain about the tone of Super Paper Mario. Why is this? This is just one example out of many but Sonic is the only franchise I know where serious moments just existing are immediately met with derision. This is something that has genuinely puzzled me for the past couple of months.
     
  7. Taylor

    Taylor

    Member
    342
    139
    43
    There's a lot of factors. @Laura pointed at one of them but I think it might also be a generational thing. Up until the past decade or so, furry cartoons were written off as basically being goofy shlock. This is really evident in the Archie comics, there was a time where the editor brought in artists from superhero comic books to do the art for Penders' stories, likely because those artists would be a better match for the darker tone than the "funny furry animal" artists from back then.

    It also doesn't help that Sonic's attempt at getting darker has always been kinda divisive due to a lack of consistent aesthetic and tone, eg SA2's plot mandating that Sonic fights realistic nondescript robots instead of badniks. I haven't played SPM but looking at its bestiary, its original creations do gel in pretty well with established Mario classics., for the most part. It makes the contrast easier to swallow, especially if the game takes its time introducing its weirdness, while SA2 immediately starts off with Sonic breaking out of prison and beating up government robots :V
     
  8. I don't know why people expect a serious story in Sonic games myself, its not like the Mega Drive games had any decent story and even today it's basically Eggman trying to overtake the world and that's it
    I did like the exploration and adventure aspect of Sonic and liked the funny dialogue in Sonic Adventure, but it was the gameplay that matter the most.

    Sonic on his own is a ridiculous concept: how many bipedal Blue Hedgehogs wear bright red trainers and can run faster than the speed of sound, do people know? Let some then get so worked up when Sonic kisses a woman in Sonic 06. It's nice that people love Sonic so much but at its heart its a simple platform game that is a rival to Mario, who also features silly stories.

    I found Sonic Adv 2 to be a bitter disappointment. Gone was the sense of scale, adventure and exploration of Sonic Adv and in comes a Mario IV style of map and then I was forced to play those horrible Eggman, Knuckles and Blaze levels, which I did not enjoy or want to play and it broke the whole flow of the game for me. It was a such a shame as the Sonic levels were utterly brilliant and everything I wanted in a Sonic 3D game.

    It's hardly unfair what Sonic is and deep down he was just meant to be a rival to Mario and it wasn't like the Mega Drive games had much of a story or for that matter most platform games. If you want a story and platform action you need to look to Tomb Raider and Drakes IMO. I love the Sonic games, but I don't take the story that seriously at all, just like with the films TBH.

    I agree some are fun, but its the gameplay I care more about. I love the 2 Sonic films, but I wasn't going into the cinema expecting a really serious story or an oscar script. That's not to belittle the films or games for the work that's gone into them and their enjoyment. I just don't expect that much when it comes to a story in Sonic games or films
     
  9. JaxTH

    JaxTH

    Pudding Deity Oldbie
    10,339
    580
    93
    Los Angeles
    Jack shit.
    Because Mario is Mario. I think Galaxy has one of the darkest Mario plots, especially the implications of the ending, and no one would call it that BECAUSE it's Mario.

    Sonic is Sonic and therefore bad and why people outside the community are still lambasting a game that came out before you were even born. '06 is about to be 20 years old soon.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  10. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,312
    923
    93
    Careful there. People here took issue last time I pointed out that Mario was given a free pass for doing some of the same things Sonic was widely criticized for doing.

    But yeah, nobody seems to bat an eye when Mario games have darker/serious moments. Or Mega Man games. Or Pokemon games. Or Kirby games*. Or...

    * I mean, the last Kirby is even set in a gritty post-apocalyptic Earth, with the last world being basically Crisis City.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2022
  11. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,466
    431
    63
    US
    Maybe there's just something uniquely-cringe about Sonic that those other IPs haven't been able to tap into.
     
  12. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,312
    923
    93
    I mean, if you're predisposed to hating any "serious" or dark moment in Sonic, then every single serious/dark moment is going to be "cringe" for you.

    Though FWIW I do feel that the mid-2000s 3d games were full of cringe. But so were Pontac/Graff games.
     
  13. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

    Professional Internet asshole Member
    2,010
    1,073
    93
    OR
    The difference is between a series having a game that takes itself (or part of itself) seriously, and a series that tries to do that only to fail embarrassingly multiple times over.

    If all Sonic had in terms of "darkness" were SA2 and Frontiers, it would probably not even be that big a deal. The issue is that Shadow the hedgehog and Sonic 06 and Sonic Forces' stories are so unbelievably poorly-executed that it made a bunch of people gaslit themselves into believing Sonic should never try to be any more mature or complex than Sonic 3. Even though the writing in Lost World or Heroes makes me grimace, it's viewed as "lighter, for kids" writing, and therefore summarily ignored. It's what's "expected".

    While I have some issues with Frontiers's cutscene direction (literally the direction, not the tone of the script), I'm genuinely overjoyed that it managed to do a character and world-focused plot with some darker elements (to be clear, there is a limit, everything about Shadow's game is over the line personally) and be received well. I really hope that further games refine the storytelling.
     
  14. Zephyr

    Zephyr

    Member
    3,466
    431
    63
    US
    I mean, maybe, but I'm more musing about how the general consensus in the wider gaming public seem more forgiving of the stuff with Mario, Pokemon, Mega Man, Kirby, etc. than they seem to be with Sonic.

    Is there something about the way Sonic games go about it that contrasts with the way these other series go about it? Would people be as kind to the melodrama of Pokemon and Mega Man games if they were brimming with voice acting of questionable quality? I haven't played many 3D Mario games, and I've played no 3D Kirby games, but I have to imagine those are much lighter on spoken, voice-acted dialog than Sonic.

    Is it because furries? Is it because the quality of the games themselves dipped so much that the plots were given less benefit of the doubt?
     
  15. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

    Member
    2,312
    923
    93
    Oh, I definitely agree that multiple failures at serious plots like Shadow or Forces have put people off from "serious" Sonic games.

    I think it's a combination most of these. Games like Shadow and 06 failing at serious plots as mentioned above, the old 3d games having poorly animated cutscenes and goofy dubs (as was the norm at the time), the series' infamous quality dip, and the preconception that anthros are supposed to be goofy.
     
  16. Lambda

    Lambda

    Member
    I think part of it is the fact that many other games ease you into the darker stuff, but a lot of Sonic games kinda throw you right into it. Mario and Kirby games can have dark endings, but they begin with candy and rainbows (in some cases, literally!)

    But while that's a factor, I think that for the most part, how the general public perceives Sonic stories is largely influenced by how they perceive Sonic's fanbase. There's a lot of cringe out there...famously so. Most of my friends aren't into Sonic. They couldn't tell you what the Master Emerald does or who Blaze the Cat is... but they know Sonichu, Sanic, that DeviantArt game where you search "[Your Name] the Hedgehog", the SammyClassicSonicFan rants... the list goes on.

    The fanbase cringe is more well-known than the franchise's actual material.

    While there are a lot of people like Laura's friend who are kinda basic and "just can't take cartoons seriously, they're all supposed to be silly kid stuff!", I think the overall public's perception of Sonic is fandom-first, content second. "Overly serious stories" is just an easy talking point to justify people's already-ingrained biases.

    I think the success of the movies has started to turn this around a bit? But it'll take a long time and a lot of good games/movies to effectively reverse the public's perception of the entire franchise.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2022
  17. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

    SAY HELLO TO MY CHOCOLATE BLEND Member
    2,909
    2,538
    93
    The problem with the dark Sonic stories isn't that they're dark.

    It's that the writing is fucking awful like holy shit
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2022
  18. That One Guy Josh

    That One Guy Josh

    Journeying into Dreams Member
    Has there actually been a dark Sonic game where the story wasn't a pile of shit?
     
  19. Yeah the writing and overall execution is pretty dog shit. Its pretty weird honestly because the classics did fine in presenting a relatively serious adventure with stakes, and the 3D games have pretty great environmental storytelling, but once it's time to get Sonic and pals moving and talking and doing stuff in cutscenes and its like baby's first drama.

    I'm honestly impressed by people who can play through the adventure and 06 stories and tell me there's actually something good there, I have no idea how but art just be like that.
     
  20. Just talking about tone and not actual plots here:

    I think the tone of Adventure 1 and 2 were pitch perfect, even if the scripts and cutscene direction of 1 brings them down. 2 was as dark as the series should ever get in my opinion. It was exciting when I was 7/8 and I can still take it seriously. Adventure 1 feels pretty similar to how I’d imagine a 3D Sonic 3 to feel in tone.

    Heroes always seemed a bit too kiddy to me even as a kid. It could just be the script and delivery. I think even if they just removed the “super power of teamwork” line it’d get boosted up IMO.

    Shadow goes too far. It doesn’t feel like a Sonic game (which, I guess in a way, it isn’t), and on its own merits, it just isn’t what I want to see.

    Sonic 06 feels closer to Adventure than Shadow in tone, and is entirely within the window of what I’d consider appropriate, but the game’s presentation is a bit too removed from what I view as “Sonic.”

    Unleashed similarly feels like it’s sitting in-between Adventure and Colors. I think it’s generally good but there is a touch too much slapstick and jokiness.

    Colors, Lost World, and Gens are just games I can’t sit through the stories on. They’re like cheesy Saturday morning cartoons that you won’t remember 2 years later.

    Forces doesn’t know what it wants to be, and I don’t like it. The story invites a tone that’d feel closer to Shadow but in reality, you whiplash between that and typical post-Colors storytelling. It’s not good.

    Frontiers is fine but there’s something off that I can’t put my finger on. I think it’s just having all the characters spread out and getting to choose when to interact with them. It makes the pacing feel very odd and removes a bit of the stakes that you should feel.