Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    I'm considering buying Forces to play only with mods, like Reimagined or Classic Sonic Improved. But I'm gonna wait a few months (maybe a year?) to give proper time to the developers.

    How do you guys like those mods? Are they worth buying the game?
     
  2. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    If you can get Forces on the cheap, like $10, it's absolutely worth it for the mods. It just makes the game a better experience. Also for it's credit, Forces runs well on lower end pcs. It ran fine on the desktop I had from like 2013 with an nvidia gtx 970 and it ran just fine at 1080p. I look forward to when my new desktop arrives next month and I can try this game (and Generations... mainly Generations) in 4k with Ray tracing mods
     
  3. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I think that both the 2000s and the post-Colors era were filled with suckers, but it feels like Sonic Team was still passionate during the former, putting out experimental and ambitious titles. After that, it feels like they threw the towel and switched to designing games that marked the checkboxes in the list of what people (mostly critics) supposedly want.

    The way I view it, the average 2000s 3d Sonic game is bad, but it feels like it's bad it didn't get the polish and development time it needed, rather than due to the devs not trying. Heroes tried to do something new in terms of gameplay and Sonic '06 tried to be grand and epic, but both fell short. Whereas the average 2010s game is bad or okay because Sonic Team didn't try too hard. Forces tried to appease everyone and ended up being an underwhelming jack of all trades. The most experimental title we got from them in the 2010s was Lost World, and that was clearly a Mario Galaxy rip-off.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  4. Josh

    Josh

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    Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree. Sonic Team never stopped trying. I don't think they were ever marking checkboxes to please critics, but I do think a constant issue for them has been, at times, over-correcting for criticism. Again though, examples of this go back 20 years, not just 10. Sonic Team reacting to fan/critic complaints is why we got...
    • Tails had to be playable, so we got Tails in a mech
    • SA1 was too unfocused, so SA2 ditched Adventure fields and fishing
    • The Adventure games weren't capturing the magic of the older titles, so Heroes returned to the progression structure and aesthetic of the classics
    • Kids of the 2000s wanted more Shadow, so he was brought back to life
    • Sonic turned into a Werehog because "other characters" were seen as the problem, and "mediocre alternate gameplay" wasn't
    • Terrible stories were ruining the series, so Unleashed and Colors swapped to a lighter tone
    • "Sonic doesn't work in 3D," so we got Sonic 4
    • "Modern Sonic is an ugly buttface," so Classic Sonic returned
    • "Sonic is too hard to control," so we got Lost World's parkour system
    • "Sonic needs to have more serious stories with stakes," so Forces tried that again, with results right in-line with every other time they did that (namely, it was executed poorly enough that it just gave every fan over the age of 12 more to complain about)
    I really love some of these things, I think some I would've liked just weren't executed well, and I'd have prefered if they hadn't even tried others. But ever since SA2, Sonic Team has kind of acted like the "Twitch Plays Pokemon" of development houses. Inconsistency has been a near-constant. It's like they've got too many different voices pulling them in too many different directions, and it's only occasionally resulted in a focused product that lives up to its potential.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  5. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    I don't think Sonic Team put more love into those older games than into the newer ones.

    It is the other way around, people just love the older games more than the newer ones.
     
  6. The Joebro64

    The Joebro64

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    You realize how brutal the Japanese game development industry is, right?
     
  7. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    If that's the case then I say don't listen to us. At this point, why bother? They've divided the fanbase so much they'll never satisfy everyone. Mania is one thing, that game is pure fan service. But the modern games don't have to. I'd rather they make the game they want to make than check off boxes. Maybe they'll come up with something completely different, something that's not Adventure, Heroes, Boost, or Lost World. Try something new, go nuts. I'm kinda sick of the nostalgia anyway it's been almost 10 straight years of Green Hill and Chemical Plant I can't stand them anymore.

    I want a good game. A game where the developers wanted to make it and could feel passionate about it. That's it at the end of the day. I'm not a one note girl when it comes to gaming I can like new things :V
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  8. Blue Spikeball

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    I'm not saying that they didn't design the older games in response to complaints and requests. But they still tried to be creative and do new things independently of them. Heroes had a more retro style but still tried to do something new with the team mechanic. Unleashed and the Storybook series were a response to the complaints about Sonic's friends but still put their own spin on the 3d formula. Even Sonic 4 tried to innovate, with the new co-op mechanics.

    Contrast that with the 2010s. Generations was literally "the boost formula plus the classic formula". With Lost World it's like they went "Mario is much more popular than Sonic and our new game will be a Nintendo exclusive, so let's ape his most recent title". Admittedly they did something similar in the 2000s in Shadow the Hedgehog, which aped dark and edgy shooters, but that was one instance among the 7+ 3d games we got around that time. Then Forces was an incongruent mishmash of concepts and ideas that tried to cater to everyone -- classic fans, boost fans, Adventure fans (with the serious and "epic" story), the OC crowd, young kids and casuals...

    I don't love all the 2000s games more, both eras had gems and stinkers. Generations is probably my favorite 3d Sonic game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
  9. Swifthom

    Swifthom

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    Love is the wrong word. Or... actually, maybe the perfect one when you understand it.
    Reading through interviews Sega as a company has always had an ambition of 'do it under pressure' - they used to have mandatory policies that all games had to be completed within 1 year and released regardless of state they were in. I mean, that is back to 1990, when game developer teams were much smaller and glitches would be much smoother, but its a policy and mindset they have never got out of. They have always had a 'push ourselves to the limit, we shine with limited resources' - hence all the cut content in the older Sonic games and the halving of Sonic 3.

    But after Sonic 3 members of Sonic Team spoke openly about wanting to try things outside of Sonic. Hence Nights, Burning Rangers other things... Then they came back refreshed for SA and it showed. Is love the right word - or just that they were re-energised and keen to up their game. Still developing under pressure.

    But - since 06 (or rather - since Unleashed failed to undo the damage 06 did) I do feel their ambition to show how amazing Sonic can be has been tempered.

    Generations was unashamedly a look backwards not forwards just using the boost genre. That's fine - but it did show up one of the issues that was present in unleashed.
    Then Lost World was designed around 'how do we solve the issue of Sonic not being awkward to controllable when at slow speeds' - and they solved that problem but bungled everything else with bland level design and ultra safe scripting.
    Then Forces was designed around 'oh, they actually just wanted speed' - and nothing else as far as Sonic's stages are concerned.

    I look at Forces and I see ambition put into the avatar concept and customisation. But I don't see it put into the game design overall and Sonic's stages in particular - it feels like a team tired of him.

    The older games didn't have more love but they did have ambitions. And they were ambitious because they loved what they were doing. Josh's breakdown of how reactive Sonic Team have been is on point:

    It's not a lack of love - but it is a lack of ambition and certainty.

    I completely agree.

    I want to see a Sonic game where it's clear Sonic Team wanted to make a Sonic game. I don't care if its boost, Lost World but done right, Adventure style reimagined or something brand new.
    Just make it good. Put their heart and soul into making it a solid, fun, stable experience where SONIC is fun to play and also clearly the focus. The division in the fanbase has come from the divisions of the style of the creators but - consistently - the thing SEGA has been poor at is polish. They got away with that in the 1990s but as the rest of the world has advanced their shortcomings have gone from charming oddities to glaring flaws. And if they don't fix this then...

     
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2020
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  10. BadBehavior

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    Can confirm with the mods. Just downloaded hedgemod manager and the Improvement mod and my jaw hit the goddamn floor when I started Luminous Forest. "What's this? Actual level design!?" I said out loud.

    That said, as impressive as it is, it's still a mod: a modification, not an overhaul. For everything they fixed, they left something alone. Wire swinging now requires actual honest to god human input where you can actually fail if you're not paying attention, but they didn't fix Sonic/Avatar's busted 0 to 9,000 acceleration. And you can tell it's amateur cos it sprinkles spikes everywhere like some of the Unleashed DLC stages. Not a good way to make your game more challenging in my eyes.

    Overall it just elevates it from a hard thumbs down to a slightly askew thumbs down.

    But hey, why pay for Forces to mod it when you could download P-06 for free? :V
     
  11. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    There are some physics improvement mods. But ya just given the game it gets less attention than like Generations or the Adventures. I feel like the mods make the game an enjoyable experience. Plus I like making the avatar Metal Sonic and having 3 Sonics :V
     
  12. Josh

    Josh

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    It's a matter of taste, but I've gotten WAY more playtime out of Forces + mods than I did with P-06. To answer @raphael_fc's original question: If you liked the boost games especially, I think it's definitely worth taking the plunge. I personally am finally satisfied with my full-price ($40) purchase of Forces thanks to these. I'll repost my recommendations from a few pages ago, and that Overclocked stage @Dark Sonic posted is INCREDIBLE, easily the best Avatar stage yet! :P

     
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  13. BadBehavior

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    Just played this too. That train that jumpscares you at the end was a more thrilling set-piece than literally anything in the base game. And it's actually of a decent length, unlike some stages in the base game where I can beat them in the time it takes for me to put on a pair of pants.
     
  14. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Ya this is like the perfect Sonic level length for me. 2:30 to 5 minutes is a decent range. Approaching 7 is fine but over 10 we have problems lol
     
  15. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

    Overthinking Sonic timelines. Member
    Hey, I was wondering, and I'm pretty sure this has been discussed a lot (such that is hard to find it, if you could point me out where should I look up to I appreciate).

    We all agree that the order of events is Sonic Mania -> Sonic Forces -> Sonic Mania Plus, right?
    In Forces we had a weird thing about prototypes of the Phantom Ruby, that Eggman created after finding the real Phantom Ruby in the prequel comics. And I was pretty sure that every one of them was destroyed, including the real one, except for that one Infinite carries within.

    So what is that Phantom Ruby that came back to Mania Plus?
     
  16. Myles_Zadok

    Myles_Zadok

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    I always thought it was the same one that sent Classic Sonic to the Modern universe at the end of the Egg Reverie Zone fight. The "Classic Phantom Ruby" if you will.
     
  17. raphael_fc

    raphael_fc

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    But what happened to it during the events of Forces?
     
  18. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

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    I think we already had this conversation. Sonic Forces is an illusion the Phantom Ruby made based on Eggman's desires, and whatever happens in it doesn't really matter. Modern Sonic is some bad dream that never really happened. :V
     
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  19. What kind of bugs me about fans are so quick to say that Sonic Team lacked "passion" nowadays is the assumption that they simply aren't trying hard enough.

    And I'm like; I want you to imagine the worst possible working conditions ever, and how you're still expected by your bosses to perform your duties, all while being hounded by your consumer base.
    That's what its like to develop Sonic games.

    Anyone that has read about the development process will understand that it is absolute hell. One of the worst things imaginable.


    I'm not about to say that Sega deserve our sympathy, but that's a pretty big assumption to think they simply aren't trying hard enough given the horrific working conditions they're meant to perform under.
     
  20. Blue Spikeball

    Blue Spikeball

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    I'm not saying that the devs have it easy. I simply say what it looks like to me based on the games. The Sonic Team of old took risks, tried new things (even when they tried to appease fans) and dared to be ambitious. They kept doing this throughout the 2000s, despite having to deal with deadlines, savage critics and an unpleasable fanbase. It backfired on them more often than not, but at least they tried. Nowadays they're playing it more safe, perhaps understandably. Maybe they're burnt out after so many failures, or they realized that the deadlines and environment don't allow them to be daring and ambitious, I don't know. I just know that when I play games like Forces, nothing about them says "ambitious" or "creative" to me.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020