I didn't just say "there's too much 2d", I explained it was overused to the point of making the levels feel too restrictive for me. I don't know why you take issue with that. When I'm playing a 3d game, I want to actually play a 3d game, not a 2d/2.5d game with a few 3d sections. Just like people expect speedy gameplay when they play a Sonic game. If I wanted to play a 2d game, I'd just go with a sidescroller like S3K instead, which handles the 2d gameplay far better.
You're missing the point. If a 3D Sonic game had the 15% of 2D that you said the 3D Mario games have, would you still complain about it because it's "restrictive"?
So then the issue isn't the 2D itself, but how its been implemented I do agree that its implemented really badly since Unleashed, but as @Josh said, its not the 2D itself that's the problem, its just being used to a very terrible effect.
Never really a take that as much as it was a light jab. "If he doesn't care about cube sections then I don't care about Silver's ball puzzle". Sid's statement could have just as easily applied to me if it said "The ratio of Sonic to Non-Sonic has absolutely no bearing on whether Adventure 1/2 is fun or not." And that meme still wounds me as an Adventure fan. I always thought it needed a contemporary update:
Except that Sonic controls the same whether in 2D or 3D. Gamma and Big control very differently. Don't be dumb.
Hah! Yep, your contemporary update wounds ME (as a Sonic fan who found a lot to love in the 2010s) in exactly the same way the original one did (as a fan who felt the same about the 2000s), so I'd say it's captured the spirit. But I think that's the real difference between then and now. Sonic's status as a fallen franchise isn't nearly as pervasive as it once was. A specific sub-sect of Adventure fans might be going through the same thing many of us Genesis/Mega Drive kids did before, but their perspective doesn't line up with the mainstream the same way. Sonic 06 was memetic in a way that Lost World or Forces could never be. "Sonic's shitty friends are ruining the series," "Sonic doesn't work in 3D," "Sonic doesn't need a story." As bullheaded as they were, these were ideas that had seeped into the fabric of gaming culture itself by 2009, but dyed-in-the-wool Sonic nerds like us are the only ones who even remember Forces' concepts enough to have an opinion about them. And in a world where Mania is so well-regarded, "Sonic needs less 2D and more serious stories," is going to sound like nonsense to anyone outside the bubble. Messaging is important. Echochambering about how much you hate 2D, GHZ, Classic Sonic, and "Baldy Nosehair" and how all of these things need to go in order for Sonic to be good is easy, but it's only going to appeal to people who already agree with you (and I'm using "you" in the indefinite sense of "everyone making this argument", not to refer to anyone specific). I think you'd get a lot further focusing on what you DO want the series to be, instead of dumping on what you don't. Which is why I think @Sonic5993 is right. Talk about how you want 3D Sonic levels to be more substantial. Be able to admit that you understand how the games you grew up with look from an outside perspective, but focus on why YOU loved them, and how you think the series can incorporate elements of them again without losing its appeal. Regardless of how much fun you might've had with Sonic 06 (and I did, too!), defending it is never going to make sense to most people. But saying that you don't want the series to be constrained from EVER attempting a story with higher stakes (like Sonic 3!), having multiple playable characters (like Sonic Mania!), or having a Chao Garden again, just because of a couple of poorly-received games that came out 15+ years ago, THAT might.
*whispers* but it's true. Completely agree - but I think this is Sonic Teams abysmal execution as much as it is overuse. When used sparingly small amounts of restricted perspective can direct players into tight, well designed, wow factor settings. Nintendo gets this, Toys for Bob gets this, Platinum Games get this... Sonic team often just seems to use it for padding (Colours and Forces being most egregious examples. And I think THIS is a really important thing. Because, to many long term Sonic Fans or people well versed in the franchise, forces was a demonstration that the franchise has gone creatively bankrupt. Fan uproar, mass protests, a feeling of betrayal from the lost promise and hope Mania had brought... But to anyone outside of the clique it's just an 'average' game. Not great, not awful, has good and bad points.... But then to an outsider doesn't that sum up the whole franchise... And apparently it even sold okay. Sonic isn't a fallen franchise any more, just a directionless one. And actually, I'm more worried right now because of it. After 06 I think SEGA really looked at themselves and promised they would do better. They had mistakes and failed attempts but they had an ambition to want to try new things. Right now... I cannot tell if they are going to blindly trudge on, unaware of their precarious position because 'the brand is popular again so we're okay' or - we keep getting hints they are taking the next game seriously but ... we've heard that before. 2021 is going to be a VERY interesting year
The question now becomes just what lessons will Sega learn from Forces' tepid reception? The game felt like they didn't even wanna make it and just did it out of obligation to meet a quota. Usually when a game gets a mediocre reception, they either double down on it or just get rid of the thing that people complained about and superficially address the actual issues. But since Sonic isn't seen as memetically bad as it was a decade ago (not that its seen as good either, mind you) is there even an incentive for them to change? This is will more than likely not happen, but I've seen a lot of suggestions that they could retain the boost as a spin off title for a stylish action game, while they work on actually addressing the issues that have plagued 3D Sonic for years now. That's my ideal scenario, there's no reason Boost has to go, just make it into a side project to tide us over. And for a 3D platforming game, go back and see what worked in the series and what didn't work and why that was the case, they really need to sit down and truly dissect these games down to a fundamental level to see what works and how can it be used as a basic frame work. But this is Sonic, and we all know things never work out for this series; so I'm expecting is that they either shell out another Boost game that may or may not be better than Forces OR they undergo another paradigm shift into a new gameplay style that may or may not be polished, OR we get a Sonic Adventure remake that does nothing to address the issues that game has
Thats kinda why I want Forces to be seen as the 06 of the boost era: So all the pinky promising over betraying the fans and promises of improvement that it feels like we've gotten for the last 5 years actually feel like it has weight and isn't just empty executive speak so their stock price doesn't even so much as slightly trip up. At this rate, the next game is just gonna be Forces 2 but they replace Classic Sonic with Tails. Homer: That's good But he plays like a shittier Yoshi's Island or something. He already has the flutter, just replace the eggs with 06's ring bombs Homer: That's bad
Forces will never be seen as bad as 06, no matter how much fans say otherwise. 06 was bad on a level that EVERYONE, in and out of the fanbase, saw. It wasn't just a bad game, it was straight up the point when everyone lost respect for Sonic as a series. No matter how bad the fanbase may think of Forces, to a non-fan, its honestly just a mediocre title that doesn't do anything bad. It's functional basically, which already puts it above 06, which is barely functional.
Well, time to change that. Starts writing 3 1/2 hour long video essay calling Forces the worst game ever. In all seriousness, I know it's a long shot that'll probably never happen unless Sega actually does put out a Forces 2 (or someone corrupting the space time continuum means that Boost is Sonic's debut 3D formula on the DC and Forces came out for the 15th anniversary, while Adventure took boosts place on HD consoles). But if it eases my mind more than the essentially nonexistent hope that the next Sonic game will turn out even remotely good, then I'm gonna keep thinking it. You have your coping strategies and I have mine.
The controls are bad and the level design is bad. It could be an absolutely bug free game, but if a platformer has bad controls and bad level design, then it's a bad platformer. If we ranked all the major platformers of recent years (Wii U or PS4/XBO onward), would Sonic Forces fall in the middle? Or would it be near the bottom? How many platformers in recent memory have been worse than Sonic Forces? How many have been better than Sonic Forces?
Well, I played the game, finished it, and even finished Episode Shadow. I haven't touched the Super Sonic DLC, and I'm not sure that I will. I'll put my more in-depth thoughts in a spoiler since I know it will be long, but TL;DR, Forces is mediocre, has potential that could've been realized, stuff you probably already know. Spoiler First Impressions and Story: The game runs well, no frame rate drops that I noticed. Cutscenes are long (I didn't skip any of them, but nice of them to give me the option), and most of them are just characters talking over radio chatter. That seems really lazy to me when they could have made them more interesting by actually cutting to whichever character is talking so we can see what they're doing when they're talking (in cutscenes, not levels, to be clear). The writing (and voice acting to a much lesser degree) is either "What?" or "Okay" or "Oh my gosh that is so bad xD", but there are a few lines that made me go "Yeah! That's exactly what Sonic would say". The plot is whatever. The War and Resistance theme is kinda weird, but I didn't mind. I chose to play on hard mode because I have played a Sonic game before, and the game is telling me that's a prerequisite for hard mode, so here we go. Hopefully, my Sonic 3D Blast experience proves useful here. Modern Sonic: Why did they change his model [Source] Why Gameplay... man this feels like Colors 2. Playing Forces really made me wonder if I would still enjoy Colors as much as I did the last time I played through it, which is when I was a kid. The levels aren't designed to be blasted through as fast as possible (with skill and by finding the best route that is, since there is rarely more than one route), and the only parts that require me to think are when we get to a 2D section that lacks any sort of slopes or path diversion or anything that would resemble Sonic level design. 2D boost sections should play like Sonic Rush, where, like, momentum and stuff matters. The 2D sections here are like "Look at all these blocks and platforms over bottomless pits!" And then you have to go so slowly because one mistake, and you fall into the bottomless pit and have to START THAT SECTION OVER AND SPEND 10 MINUTES THERE BECAUSE I HAVE NO PATIENCE. The air physics and momentum (and this goes for all characters) feels off. Like they don't retain forward momentum in the air by default. Wherever you point your stick, they go that way, and if you let go, they fall straight down. It's so awkward to me. I fell into countless bottomless pits (and there are infinite bottomless pits) because of this. The boost feels nice, but why do I not get any at the start of levels? Generations did that, and I'm pretty sure Colors did too, so, what gives? Also, is there a canonical reason the Wisps are here? None of the characters ever talk about this, and they treat it like it's perfectly normal (more on this when I get to the Avatar). I'd rather just get boost from rings like in Generations than have to also think about grabbing Wisps too. Alright, a sharp turn! I can just... run around it (or off it if there's no barrier). I don't understand removing the drift when it was only ever completely optional. Yeah, the drifts you have to make to not hit that car that's ALWAYS in the ideal drift arc in Speed Highway are hard, but you didn't have to drift, you could take it slow or maybe try to quickstep. These levels don't feel like they were meant to be replayed, because there isn't much replaying for. None of the levels made me go "Oh! I cannot wait to play that again and get a faster time!" Sonic Generations did that with its first Modern Sonic level. Forces did it with none of them. Most of the 3D sections are little more than "Hold the boost button", "Do nothing down the waterslide", "Switch between rails over bottomless pits" or "Quickstep to avoid lasers down a straightway." I do want to praise the regular speed controls, though, because he actually feels natural(ish) to control at normal speeds. His turn radius is much closer to what it was in the Adventure games, and that alone makes running out of boost 10 times more bearable. The first boss battle! Let me guess, we're going to be chasing Zavok down a hallwa... what. We... we can move in a true 3D space for a boss battle?? This is awesome! My 3D Blast knowledge will be useful here after all! (20 minutes later) "WHAT DO??? HOW DO I HURT HIM???" (A YouTube walkthrough later) "WHY WOULD THEY EXPECT ME TO NOT JUMP TO TRY AND HIT HIM?? WHY WOULD I JUST STAND THERE WHEN HE'S ABOUT TO LAND? I'M TRYING TO BEAT HIM QUICKLY, WHICH, LOGICALLY, WOULD BE ACCOMPLISHED BY JUMPING RIGHT BEFORE HE LANDS SO I CAN USE THE HOMING ATTACK SOONER!" None of the other bosses are as bad as the first fight with Zavok, but... they have potential (and I really liked the first fight with Infinite), but I don't know, they felt like I had to have way too much knowledge of how to dodge all the attacks to reasonably win on my first try. I don't think anything was ever telegraphed, or at least not in a way that I would have understood. The Avatar "Rookie": I would be way more engaged with this if I could give him a name. The characters just keep calling him "Rookie", like, DOES HE NOT HAVE A NAME??? And then they start saying "We should stop calling you Rookie because you're not a rookie anymore!" THEN MAYBE LET ME NAME HIM??? Even if the characters never said his name, I would feel so much better knowing he had one. Before I talk about his gameplay, I want to bring up that you unlock stuff for your Avatar after EVERY STAGE. And you have to push A to confirm that you have seen EVERY SINGLE THING YOU UNLOCKED. So every time I completed a stage I would immediately start mashing A to get through it faster. There's no reason they couldn't have put it in a list that you could push A ONE TIME to skip, and you can scroll through it if you want to see everything. When I unlock so much stuff, it no longer feels like "Oh boy I unlocked something that might be cool!" It felt like "Oh, more junk." I used the default wispon for the entirety of the story, and then I tried out a few of the others afterwards to see what they were like. The avatar is... hey this is actually kind of cool. A different take on the boost formula, but instead of the boost, you get a flamethrower, which is... way too OP. I almost never found a homing attack to be the ideal option to attack when I have a flamethrower that can torch anything in sight. Some of the other weapons are more balanced, but when you start with one that's OP, and the levels are just as boring as Modern Sonic's, then why bother making this experience take longer? Which is why I'm grateful the flamethrower let me use "BURST!" wisps, allowing me to essentially moon jump over large portions of levels. Yes, Wisps give the Avatar temporary powers depending on which wispon you are using. In the giant battle cutscene, you can even see some of the soldiers using wispons. Is a canonical reason for this ever given? No. Knuckles hands the Rookie a Wispon but makes no remarks about why "the good guys" are weaponizing wisps when we decided that was bad for Eggman to do in Colors, but whatever. When you can only use a certain type of wisp depending on your wispon, that really makes them feel tacked on. They don't provide a whole lot of replay value from where I sit, so not being able to use whichever one I want in a given circumstance is kinda lame. I think the Avatar is a great example of how the boost has more potential to it by simply using other characters. I'd love to see how Tails and Knuckles would play in this kind of formula. But of course, that would depend on someone actually knowing how to make good boost levels for multiple characters, so that's probably just a pipe dream. Classic Sonic: He doesn't control exactly like he does in Mania, (see: bad air physics) but his roll picks up momentum down slopes (all 3 of them) and his drop dash was okay. I missed the one-button spindash from Generations so bad throughout this game though. If the levels were good Sonic levels and not cookie-cutter 2d platforming stages, then they might actually be worth replaying. People complain that he has no real reason to be here, and yeah, that may be true, but I don't care about plot THAT much. Consistency with the existing lore, yeah I kinda care about that. Actual plot, I don't care that much about. Conlusion: The only things that really stuck with me were: War, Resistance, the first fight with Infinite (good), the first fight with Zavok (bad), the Death Egg Robot fight at the end (okay), mashing A through the end of level screens, "DoUbLe BoOsT" (hilariously bad), weird air momentum, blocky 2D platforming, that Carnival Night Zone but in the jungle setting, and nameless Avatar. I enjoyed it for what it was, but I don't think I would recommend playing it to someone who wasn't already a Sonic fan.
I'll write up a more detailed response later, but if you'd like to get some significantly extended value out of Forces and don't mind modding, might I recommend... This mod replaces Sonic's model with the one from Generations and Lost World. Personally, I like the Forces model just fine, but if you prefer the longer spines, there you go! If you don't care about making a character but like the comics, you might also consider turning the Avatar into Bunnie Rabbot or Whisper. This mod features terrain and layout changes that help fix Forces' biggest problem in my book: A lack of substance. It's incomplete, covering about 2/3rds of the levels so far, and they vary in how much they change, but they ALL bring some much-needed challenge and replay value to the game. Guardian Rock is one of the newest additions, and it's crazy how much better it is (it even adds a 3D section!) Sunset Heights, Luminous Forest, and Network Terminal are also some of my favorites. This is the Classic Sonic Improvement Mod, and honestly, that name is really underselling it at this point. It completely overhauls his gameplay, physics, all of his levels, and even his MODEL, bringing it more in line with his renders. Its newest addition is an entirely new boss battle, versus Chaos 0! These mods have overhauled Forces to the point that it's gone from a game that disappointed me into one I really enjoy. If you're a fan of the boost games especially, I'd recommend giving 'em a try.
Why would I link someone beating the game in 45 minutes? That wouldn't correspond to the video you posted. I'd have to play through the game and cut out all parts of the game that I have no control in, and all the bosses and cutscenes, for it to be consistent. I guarantee you it's ~30 minutes at that point. That speedrun has about 15 minutes of 2D gameplay by the metrics used before. The other 15 minutes are bosses, cutscenes, and other parts of the game where you have no control over your character (the score tallies are already removed from the stated time), which are removed from the Colours video and therefore should not be counted here either. Again, I'm comparing like for like here. EDIT: Actually a full TWO AND A HALF MINUTES of that time still goes to the score tally just being on-screen, only the actual time it's spent ticking is removed from the stated time.
IIRC, that's just how Sonic speedruns are measured. Speedrunners get such a huge time bonus for beating most acts in under 30 seconds, it would be faster in real time to just WAIT and shorten the score talley. But that would go against the spirit of speedruns (plus it'd be boring), so it was agreed to just add up the sum of the in-game timer in each act.
I've played this game from start to finish, there is nothing in this game that is anywhere near to the technical mess that was Sonic 06. And if you do think this game is as bad as 06, then I got nothing else to say about this.
