Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.
I'm gonna be getting notifications for this thread the rest of my life...
How many times does this have to happen for parents to realize it maybe isn't a good idea to give your child free access to your credit card information
I imagine kids find the credit cards rather than just be given them. But yes, parents need to be wary. The problem is that many parents who don't play games have no idea how utterly detestable and vile the industry is.
Either way, it's the company's responsibility that children's games don't potentially take thousands of pounds from children and other players. Imagine if you had to monitor what cartoons your child watched because they could potentially pump thousands into it.
It makes me seethe with rage how disgusting these gaming companies are.
The kid doesn't need the physical card. Most of these games use Google Pay (or whatever it was called, I don't allow myself to play gachas anymore). It saves your card number, but requires a password, but you can disable the need for a password. All it takes is the parent buying the kid one thing and disabling the password requirement, and they'll never know until it's too late.
These companies prey on the uninformed. Not everyone is a tech savvy as you and I who spend countless hours exploring the internet and learning about how not to fall for this stuff. Many parents and people simply DON'T KNOW about all the ways these allegedly free games can suck your money away from you.
Instead of asking how it happened in this particular case, we should first be asking why are you allowed to spend $16,000 on a mobile game in the first place without any blocks or warnings about the amount of money being spent in game? These games aren't worth that much even with microtransactions and it's more proof of their abusive gambling tactics that pick on the young and the mentally ill more than anything to me.
Nothing stops the game from putting a limit to how much you can spend over a period of time. I doubt bad publicity alone would incentivize companies to do this though, since there is an infinite supply of microtransaction games for moblie. What's popular today will be forgotten tomorrow. The apps, and consequently, the app-makers don't seem to have anyone to hold them accountable here.
To bring this thread more on topic, I'm gonna play Forces (the Steam version) for the first time either tomorrow or the day after, so that'll be fun.
Good luck, have fun, and let us know what you think! Also, good choice going with the PC version. I've tripled my playtime with Forces this year thanks to mods
Contrary to what I typically find with a Sonic game, my first playthrough was probably my favorite. I don't want to prime your expectations, so I'll explain why in a spoiler
The Avatar creator was enjoyable enough, the stages were fresh, the dialogue was dumb and charming, and the story was nonsense. But I couldn't QUITE enjoy it enough on its own merits to put away the thought that aside from Classic Sonic's stages (and even they're not great), the level design was so shallow that it'd never even hold up to a second playthrough. And as much as I tried to mine some replay value out of it, it definitely never did.
Same here. Or more accurately the 1st playthrough is the best before all of the game's issues (in gameplay at least) start ominously bubbling to the surface on repeats.
And even the story doesn't escape scrutiny. "Can't Sonic just collect the chaos emeralds and go super to beat Infinite?" "Why is Knuckles a general when he comes up with the worst plans that get everyone killed?" "Literally everything about Classic Sonic?" etc etc. Stuff that in Sonic 06 would prompt hours upon hours of video essays. Yet Forces barely gets a highlight reel from these same people. Probably speaks to its shocking lack of substance.
I played Sonic Generations yesterday and Classic Sonic definitely plays better in it than he does in Forces. It's hard to explain since he definitely doesn't play perfectly in Gens, but his rolling and inertia, while very flawed, feel far better than Forces.
Classic Sonic in Gens has far, far, more automation. It's pretty dumb duck-taping but it does mean that his levels are forced to run more smoothly and are less of a slog to get through than Forces' Classic Sonic. You don't spend so long failing to go through loops, up ramps, and rolling doesn't completely stop him like it does in Forces. The levels in Gens are also a lot more visually dynamic with the camera movements and look more interesting aesthetically.
Also, while a controversial move, I do understand why they gave Classic Sonic in Gens a ridiculous one button spindash and made him very fast at base level. It makes his levels synergise better with Modern Sonic. In Forces, Classic Sonic is even slower and nerfed, which makes him really stand in contrast to Modern Sonic and Avatar.
Interesting observation regarding automation. Despite the fact that they're structured so differently, Classic Sonic's levels in Generations wind up feeling like they're cut from the same cloth as Modern's. They synergize well, like you said. It's not necessarily a bad thing, but I do think it leaves Classic feeling like a less-dynamic take on Modern's spectacle. His actions don't offer him the same sort of rhythmic variability, but it's all too easy to wind up playing him with the same "speedrun perfectionist" mentality.
Much as I enjoy the speed that one-button spin dash gives you, I do think it's a major contributing factor in why. I haven't done this in a while, but if I play through his levels pretending like I don't have it, I end up taking my time more, finding completely different paths and uncovering more secrets and power-ups.
Forces' Classic Sonic has the Drop Dash instead. It lacks any of the nuance it had in Mania, of course. But I think it still strikes a better balance. It lets Sonic get up to speed without coming to a standstill, but it's still not as fast as a spin dash, and it's not nearly as spammable. I wouldn't mind trying Generations' much better-designed classic stages with it!
Although... given that I don't think Forces or Mania ever do much to teach the player about it, I wonder how many people go through those games unaware the Drop Dash even exists?
It's possible. I remember the first time I played Mania I barely used it. I feel like it's the kind of move you don't really get until you try it out, and after a bit it "clicks".
With Classic Sonic's relatively sluggish movement, along with how his stages rely heavily upon assets and layouts derived from the more fleshed out Modern stages, as well as the fact that Classic has significantly less stages and unique music, I would not be surprised to learn that Classic was a late addition to the game.
It would make sense to me, as even last year when I was sorting all the Modern, Avatar, and Classic tracks into their own playlists, I couldn't help but notice just how lacking the Classic tunes were compared to the others. I don't just mean the quantity, but the quality too.
I dug into this some months ago:
And as Blue Blood pointed out, Classic is featured in exactly zero bonus acts. Also, agreed regarding his music. His first level is one of my favorite songs in the game, but everything past that kind of sounds like a bad MIDI in a Klik n' Play fangame from 2001.
Ikr? It makes me wanna take a time machine to 2010 in the middle of the Sonic 4 discourse and just say "boy you think this music sounds bad now? You're gonna be on your hands and knees begging for forgiveness when you GET A LOAD OF THIS!"
On that note, the music as a whole just leaves a bit to be desired, really challenging the "even the bad sonic games have great music" maxim. Modern Sonics just sound identical with little variety in instruments or melody and the avatar's vocal tracks just exist.
And then there's Fist Bump. I never got the relative praise for it. (I just wince whenever I hear the vocals, "Fist Bump" as a title is just too cheesy even by Sonic standards, and the instrumentals and melody feel like 5 different Sonic songs mushed together, a bit of Reach for the Stars here, a bit of Endless Possibilities there). I want to like it, given it's the first time since Colours we've even had vocal themes (and the first time since Unleashed that they weren't autotuned garbage :P). I know it's a matter of taste but I just look at my sonic vocal themes playlist and think "I don't wanna taint this playlist by adding it".
But I did add "Infinite" though, that shit slaps.
(But it does make me wonder. 06 had 3 vocal themes for each of its characters. If Forces had Fist Bump for Sonic and Infinite for the Avatar (a stretch, I know)... what would a Classic Sonic vocal theme sound like? And would it sound like the Mining Diamonds kid sang it?)
So someone finally did it and it turns out Sonic Colors only has 22 minutes of 3D gameplay itself
I don't know what to do with this information but it kind of goes to show how a lot of Colors reception at the time came from the fact that we were willing to let a lot slide just for the chance at a consistently good Sonic experience in 2010.
The whole debate over 2D sections reminds me of arguments I got into like 10+ years ago, when critics insisted that the Adventure games were bad because "you spend 90% of the game not playing as Sonic," and I'd be like, "That's hyperbole, and also the Sonic part is REALLY FUN," and they'd say something about "pinball physics," and complain that Unleashed should have been entirely 2D, and we'd just get super-pedantic and spiral in circles forever.
And I get this stuff was used as an obvious crutch in Forces, but not much about Forces was executed well. We were just talking about this a few pages ago. "2D is bad," has become as much of a memetic cliche as "Sonic doesn't work in 3D," used to be. People are blaming the concept.
And the Sonic series seems to be the only platformer where people hyper-focus on this as an issue. Crash 4 has significant 2D platforming sections in almost every level, but I haven't seen a single person knock it for that.
I am, of course, saying this as someone who loves both 2D and 3D Sonic games equally. It makes sense that I wouldn't resent mixing the two in any measure, because I enjoy them both. But I don't think it really matters how much 2D or 3D gameplay a game has, as long as it's designed well.
It's been wild to see the boost games go from being criticized for not being enough like the classics, to being criticized for not being enough like Adventure.
The shifting to 2D isn't a bad idea in itself. Neir: Automata did it brilliantly and I think Sonic Generations was okay with how it handled it on the whole. It's just that Colors (and Gens at times) over-relied on it. 20 minutes of 3D is a bit much , might as well be a 2D game at that point. But the game being mostly 2D isn't inherently a problem if it's designed well.
That said, people probably liked the fact Colors was predominantly 2D at the time. This was when a lot of fans thought Sonic was always awful in 3D and wanted more 2D games. I mean games like Adventure 1 and 2 always had their supporters because of their cultural significance, but Adventure 1 was certainly not as universally regarded as a quality title in the fanbase back then. Unleashed certainly didn't have the renewed appreciation it currently has in the fanbase. At best people would say the daytime stages were great but the rest of the game was awful. It's easy to forget but Colors was contemporary of Sonic 4 and both were marketed together. In fact, Colors was marketed as a children's game while Sonic 4 was touted as the serious game for the hardcore fans. Colors was the Forces to Sonic 4's Mania and the reception of the games since couldn't have been any different. But I distinctly remember many fans being more excited for Sonic 4 because it was 2D and in the style of the classics. Colors was seen as the other one which was coming out on the Wii and attracted mild interest. But all eyes were on Sonic 4. Although its placement as Sonic 4 probably helped it.
Honestly, times couldn't have been more different back then and sometimes I feel like we've entered an alternate reality. Back then many fans kept banging on about how Sonic shouldn't have a story, should have Classic Sonic's design (think of the Sonic 4 green eyes debacle and the delight at Classic Sonic in Generations), etc. I think Colors' reception has changed mostly because people's tastes have changed. There are some design criticisms of the game: some have noted that the game's blocky platforming is repetitive for example. But a lot of criticisms of the game are a matter of taste, such as its story, portrayal of Sonic, the predominance of 2D. Some of these points are probably a result of a new generation of Sonic players but I think opinions in the fanbase more generally have also just changed. Is it a matter of higher standards? Depends on your interpretation.
Honestly what will fans think in 10 years time? Will there be a renewed appreciation of Lost World and Forces? Will fans want to go back to Pontac and Graff's stories and say they were never really appreciated. Will people say that the Boom TV Series was criminally underappreciated. Honestly I think that one is probably very likely to happen.
One thing is for certain, everyone will always adore Sonic 3
Edit: Damn, Josh beat me to the punch by 1 minute!
I was mentioning it because people used Forces use of 2D as a reason for it's quality when it turns out one of the best received Boost games wasn't much better in this regard and none of this other stuff you mentioned.
Colors reception has slowly shifted to being love it or hate it and I feel things like this we let slide in 2010 because we felt it was all uphill from here (Generations was great so can you blame us) are now being noticed when they didn't before. That's all I shared it for.
People say this a lot and I just don't think it's very valid. Sure, we probably had lower standards when it came to certain things, like Classic Sonic's physics in Generations. That wouldn't fly in a world post Mania and a lot of people like myself hadn't played Classic Sonic games in a long time and forgotten what it controlled like. Colors' repetitive block platforming and short levels, perhaps a byproduct of the Wii's hardware, would not be as tolerated today. I mean Forces is a good example of that.
But on a lot of this stuff, and these points are the really popular ones, it's subjective. Color's predominant usage of 2D, portrayal of Sonic, and light-hearted story aren't inherently awful design choices which we've all risen above with the passage of time. People's tastes have just changed.
You pretty much said what I did only to say you disagree lol. People's tastes have changed and evolved as we refuse to accept things we did in the past because they were new ideas or weren't oversaturated. That's what I was trying to get at.
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