Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    As far as the plot goes, it's that Colours explicitly had Yacker and everyone else leave at the end. Lost World didn't even handwave it - they just appeared and it wasn't mentioned at all. I was perfectly fine with Runners saying the some of the Wisps changed their mind and decided to stay.

    The thing that makes the Wisps different to any Mario power-ups is that they're only useful in very specific areas. It becomes boring and really breaks the flow. In Colours it wasn't so bad because the levels were designed to take advantage of them, even if doing so did bring you to a complete halt. Using them outside of their designated area is either pointless, suicide or flat-out forbidden by the game. That's not a power-up at all. Lost World made it worse. We can all complain about the gimmicky motion control, but even integration into the levels was much worse. Because you almost never need to to use them, they became silly diversions that had absolutely no place in the game. They were shoehorned in there with zero benefit to the gameplay. If this game is going to use the Wisps, I hope it's either only the white ones or they're more limited in number with greater versatility. If the rocket wisp returns for example, it had better be useable and worthwhile throughout any stage it appears in.

    Also Iizuka mentioned that you fill the boost gauge either with the Wisps or by defeating enemies, ala Colours. You can even see Sonic burst some out of capsules. This probably means that collecting rings won't fill the gauge, so the boost could be used more sparsely this time around. I'm cool with that. The level snippet we saw is very boost-corridorry though.
     
  2. Andrew75

    Andrew75

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    Sorry guys,,,,, don't mean to be a buzzkill, but from the gameplay footage, Sonic forces looks like its going to bore me to death. Its more of the same old , same old boost crap that I had to force myself to finish during generations, and even unleashed. ( They were good games, but yeah I felt they were dull in the gameplay department) ( I know I'm gana get a lot of flack for this, ahh well you guys can enjoy another boost boost game. ( I'm looking forwards to Mania though )
    But If Forces has 2D sections, than I may Force myself to play it, if ( big if ) they get the physics right) Generations screwed that one up big time.
     
  3. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    So apparently the producer of this game is Shun Nakamura. He can be credited for the following things in Sonic 06:

    Director, Chief Game Designer, Game Story, Game Title

    ...

    Ohhhh boy. Well the man's had 11 years to learn a lesson so let's hope for the best.
     
  4. Chimera

    Chimera

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    Fair take on why Wisps weren't that well utilized in other games. In Generations, the two wisps were the worst parts of each repsective stage, killing the amazing Classic PW music and almost invalidating half of Act 2's level design (even if it's invalidated by itself). In Colors I'm sure they were seen as incredibly gimmicky because they basically became the level, instead of enhancing the experience. It was wisp or not, which is problematic in a game about the flow of motion. A similar design problem would probably be everything inherent to Lost World, a la its movement being very digital, on/off and not at all fluid, along with its wisps being objectively worse than Colors' in how they do really nothing for the gameplay.

    So if Mario powerups are tried-and-true powerups, as we'd call them, we can instead associate Sonic's wisps to... Minigames? Yeah probably.

    As a thought experiment, let's see if we can think of a use for wisps, outside of being mode-changers. I think first, it's important to destinct what a "good" and "bad" wisp power would be if they exist at all, or at least weed out the objectively terrible ones.


    • Personally, aside from White wisp (i.e. simply boost power), I think Cyan is the best designed wisp. It still suffers from halting player momentum, but only momentarily to direct where the player will be going, and in theory could have much of its "startup lag" removed to make it a very quick powerup if you're already facing where you want to fire off. This wisp functions less like a "mode-changer" and more like a teleport move. It focuses on sending Sonic in a desired direction, is usually the only way to access secret areas, and requires one to have the thing before they're even able to access that place, so while it can be a quicker way to get from point A to point B (if the laser sends you forward), it also can bring you to a better route with either more stuff or less land to cover. In a way it functions both like a powerup and like a key. Its worst attribute is probably its lag between starting and ending the move, so nixing the "LAZER!!" startup and just getting into the action, even letting it happen instantly if you tap the Y/Wisp button, could make it a very quick and nice powerup. It wouldn't hurt to keep momentum if it's used this way too.
    • Drill would be nice if it didn't also take very long to start up and didn't end the moment you exited the ground, as it basically turns the move into, like I described, a mode changer. Plus, its reliance on 2d floors to see how you're going through the ground makes it incredibly situational and, as mentioned, a damn gimmick, as levels could be designed around exclusively the drill wisp (read: most of Tropical Resort's sub acts and some of Sweet Mountain). Overall, it doesn't exactly feel like an extension off of Sonic's 3D mobility, and unlike Laser, it's not exactly superior to what he can already do in regards to getting to the end of the damn level. In terms of level design, it actually requires work to be done around it, instead of functioning more like, say, Knuckle's dig, letting him get something through the ground, or even evade enemies by going under their attacks. In that sense, though, the drill would effectively be useless, as finding items isn't exactly a priority in this game, and you can just cut through enemy attacks by either boosting or sliding anyway.

      Also that music shouldn't last so long. In fact wisp music should just stop in general- it only adds to the feel of "this is a minigame now."
    • Spike is sadly another 2D exclusive (gee what a trend), but other than cutting into the music time, it's actually REALLY good as an alternative mobility tool like Laser, where you can move onto geometry you couldn't before. This does require some clever design workarounds to make sure you don't just walk off the level (easily done via not letting sonic climb invisible walls and making roof lips unscaleable), but again it allows for another dimension of the level to be explored that, for the MOST part, feels like an evolution off his standard abilities. Its inherent problems do hold it back in a lot of ways, though. It stops your momentum entirely, only getting good movement out of charged spindash. Also, if you end the spike wisp power (i forgot if you can even do this in Colors), you don't keep it, which means unless there's a lot of spike wisps placed around, you're not gonna get good footing on walls, else the "minigame" feel is real.
    • Lightning I could see being very nice as a form of mobility as well, since it's basically a tether. It could let you traverse more vertically, as a substitute for using 2D sections to have you travel upwards. It's efffectively a homing attack upgrade where you're allowed to home in on more than just enemies, which could be nice, however it also runs the risk of being--as it was in lost world--a requirement for goddamn "swing puzzles" or some dumb shit like that. This is more of a level design issue where it CANNOT be a crutch, as homing attack chains already run that problem. As I said, it'd work if it's basically Homing Attack +, however, and this is an issue for every wisp aside from White: it turns the game into a different mode. The reason Cyan works so well at masking this is because it's a one-and-done burst of movement, and you don't really see Sonic turn into his dumb yellow-eyed-cyan-ball-of-light thing. If anything the speed and design of the form makes it just look like he goes off in a burst. If Ivory were to work, it'd have to not take away ANYTHING from standard gameplay, and be more a case of "do I want to use my better homing attack now or save it for what might be a better place later?" or just as a powerup you use the moment you see things you want to grapple onto.


    Everything else is kinda garbage.

    • Rocket has a lot of problems, and while the idea of going upwards is nice, it doesn't handle it well at all. A lot of startup, breaks the flow entirely, and doesn't feel like you're playing the same game anymore. Especially in Generations where you have to charge it for some fucking reason. Unless a situation requires it, there's almost no reason to use rocket.
    • You can make a case for Red Wisp being ok if it wasn't, again, its own mode, and instead pressing the jump button twice or maybe Y out of jump would get you a double jump attack, to which it'd be a firey lightning shield, but as it is it's pretty lackluster.
    • Eagle is... weird. On the one hand you get more mobility in the air but it becomes a completely different game that turns it from an action runner into something else. In fact, in levels that aren't designed for Eagle, it breaks the game entirely, so it's best to leave it out.
    • Quake and Bomb are dumb. Roll around in a ball until you break big things. Minigame.
    • Hover is slow and bullshit, the only good thing about it being its lightdash which is a standard move in Unleashed/Gens and should be here.
    • Frenzy and Void are fun "break everything" bursts of energy but change gameplay too much to be anything more than a gimmick, honestly. Frenzy becomes uncontrollable and Void breaks level design.
    • Cube, asteroid, and rythm can go fuck themselves.



    So... the takeaway here I guess is if wisp powers are to exist, they have to not change the game into something it isn't, and the only ones that seem to do that right now are Boost and Laser. Boost is just something Sonic can already do and white wisps only serve to fill his meter, whereas Laser is a burst of movement which helps Sonic out in a game ABOUT mobility. White wisps just add to an element already intrinsic to the game, while Cyan wisp just lets you do what you can't normally while achieving the goal you want--get to the end faster. The "okay" wisps seem to be more *trying* to do what Cyan's doing, but falling short due to feeling too much like a pacebreaker. Everything else just shows what Wisps are erroneously used for: filler. They're used as part of gameplay that really doesn't need to be there and frankly isn't more fun than the base game.

    If wisps are meant to be useful, I think the whole "transformation" shtick should be dropped entirely in favor of the wisps just seamlessly enhancing Sonic's kit. Development wise, much of this could be fixed by just nixing the announcement parts and making what the wisps do either instant or just come out faster. In terms of how they gel with the game though, this might be a bit fargone of a plan if Sonic Forces is already well into development with wisps in mind, unless those wisp parts are just cut out in favor of things like walljump, grind, homing attack etc. segments (or even as lazy as a lightdash if they reeeaallly need to). But seriously, wisps have no place if they're going to be used for anything other than enhancing what's already good about the game, else they're not powerups. They're chores.



    Thoughts?
     
  5. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    If it essentially plays like a refined Generations with Wisps in all the levels, that's going to be fine with me so long as the Wisps are optional and not ancillary to proceed.

    Yes, this first level is narrow, but Modern Green Hill in Generations was a single-lane boost fest as well, so it's not necessarily indicative of the level design for the whole game. It just had better not be.

    In my personal view, this is Iizuka's last chance at redemption. His lead over the series has been so uneven, I want to see someone else head Sonic Team soon.

    That being said, this is now the fourth 3D boost formula game in the series, and by that merit, the gameplay style that has obtained the most polish and refinement of any of any style in the series. Generations was so close to perfect in how Sonic handled; his low-speed maneuverability just needed a lot more finesse. I'm still optimistic that that issue may yet have been addressed.

    I'm not disappointed by what was shown today. There really wasn't enough to sway me in either a positive or a negative direction yet. That will probably change tomorrow when we get gameplay reports from different outlets. I am really hoping for the best.
     
  6. Linkabel

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    It is Ohtani, he confirmed it in his Twitter. To me at first it sounded more like Sonic Runners than Sonic Adventure.

    I don't think they'll ever top the Adventure soundtrack.
     
  7. Beltway

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    In fairness, Sonic 2006's development as a whole wasn't exactly the smoothest of productions. I doubt he actually called for the game to be rushed to release without proper bugfixing. (Though whoever made the call to take half of the development staff away for Secret Rings' production did a boneheaded move.)

    He preceding credentials has however largely been bit roles for Dreamcast/pre-Colors 7th-gen era Sonic titles, though:

    Sonic Adventure 2: Battle (2002) — Special Thanks
    Billy Hatcher and the Giant Egg (2003) — Director, Lead Game Designer
    Sonic Heroes (2003) — Development Support
    Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) — Director, Chief Game Designer, Game Story, Game Title
    Sonic Rivals (2006) — Game Title
    Sonic Rivals 2 (2007) — Game Title
    Sonic and the Secret Rings (2007) — Game Title
    Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (2007) — Planning Supervisor
    Sonic Riders: Zero Gravity (2008) — Game Title
    Sonic Unleashed (2008) — Level Design Special Thanks (PS3 & Xbox 360 Version), Game Title
    Sonic and the Black Knight (2009) — Game Title

    By the by, this is a rather substantial revelation, IMO. Iizuka from Colors to Lost World has been the sole producer of all Sonic Team/Dimps games up to this point, this is the first time we're getting a different producer for the game since Unleashed. Iizuka stepping away from the producer's chair (or alternatively, sharing it as a co-producer) for Sonic Forces may hint to the creative direction for this game going in a different direction. It is worth noting that Iizuka is also not producing Mania either, and ST as a whole pretty much left Sanzaru to their own devices in the development for Fire and Ice. This might be an indication that Iizuka, with his new supervisory role, is now taking a more hands-off approach with the development of Sonic games.

    And getting Nakamura in particular to produce the project may be a signal that they may be trying to gun for the 2000s "edge" era of Sonic back, and moving away from the Colors/Pontac & Warren era. (Though that won't automatically correspond to game quality.)
     
  8. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Nothing was wrong with it in and of itself. Heck, I adore that song. But the orchestral music always felt, at least to me, like it might be better suited to another franchise. It's nice to see a return to something a little more frantic and up-tempo.
     
  9. Felik

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    From the gameplay footage I get a "7/10" feeling about this game. It feels like it's going to be good/not great which is fine by me.
    Although I was really hoping that they'd step up their game this time rather than play safe.

    Also SEGA has officially run out of good Sonic game names :specialed:
    I get that the red star and name "forces" imply some sort of war/insurgency but still the name sounds kinda lame.
    Maybe it will grow on me though.
     
  10. Impish

    Impish

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    I think they ran out at Unleashed. Always thought that was a name that leaned really hard on the game's major gimmick, and look at the names since then: Colors, Generations, Boom, Lost World. Out of all of them the most original would have been Boom, except that was named after a song!
     
  11. Raivop

    Raivop

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    Cool stuff. This does look really nice but honestly I'm not a big fan of boost-like gameplay due how slippery Sonic felt outside from on-rails sections. Although this only applied in Unleashed and Generations so this may change when this game does come out. Overall, I'm somewhat excited and eager to hear more.
     
  12. plushifoxed

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    they could get a good chunk of the way towards topping it by just letting Fumie Kumatani make music for the games again
    i really miss that saturn/dreamcast-era sega sound team feel
     
  13. Fenrir

    Fenrir

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there some sort of information recently stating there would be 'no more Sonics'? Because if that's the case this third gameplay style has me extremely curious and equally worried.

    While I'm personally glad Boost gameplay is getting another chance to be refined, that gameplay footage wasn't assuring. I know it's only a few seconds of a single portion of a level but DAMN that was not doing the hallway stigma any favors. It did look pretty smooth though.

    Honestly I'm pretty worried still. I would be content if this was just "Generations 2: No Fanservice Edition", but three different gameplay styles? Obviously they're likely pretty used to Modern and Classic's gameplay, but focusing on a third gameplay style is once again showing Sonic Team's developers can't just stick to their damn guns and have about as much faith in their ideas as an elementary schooler's rushed science fair project... There ALWAYS has to be something more than just a focused, speedy platforming game, even though most people would love Sonic just being pure Sonic.

    In fact, I'm going to call it right now: whatever the third gameplay option is going to be, it's going to be the most poorly received part of the game. I have absolutely no faith in Sonic Team making a new style of gameplay, ESPECIALLY not when their efforts are divided into thirds.
     
  14. Pengi

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    I'd be happy if the third gameplay style was Chao Garden.

    With Modern Sonic and Classic Sonic, a third character would inevitably end up seeming like the odd one out. Unless maybe it's Metal Sonic representing Eggman's forces. Maybe like Modern Sonic, but with Metal Sonic's signature electric and laser moves. Maybe you could get points for destroying landscape as you go along?
     
  15. Fenrir

    Fenrir

    Eh. Member
    I also have a bit of a gut feeling the third gameplay style is going to be the new character they've said the game is going to have. It might be neat to play on Eggman's side in one way or another, that concept would at least interest me.
     
  16. big smile

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    The main problem with past Shin Nakamura games is that they tend to be stuffed with too many ideas, but very little thought in the execution of said ideas. Hopefully the rest of the team will keep a tight focus in Sonic Forces so it doesn't suffer from the same problems.

    I wouldn't mind the boost game play if the stages were a bit wider so there was more exploration to balance the scripted bits. But it is very early at this stage.

    Also, I hope the post apocalyptic theme isn't going to be used on every stage, because it's going to get very stale.
     
  17. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    Let's not forget the non-Sonic games he directed and worked on that you left out:

    • ChuChu Rocket! (1999) — Puzzle Editing
    • Samba de Amigo (2000) — Director, Main Planner
    • Rhythm Thief & the Emperor's Treasure (2012) - Director, Producer
    Like yeah a lot of what he did has been helping out with the development of games in the edgy era of Sonic games but let's give credit where credit is due. :v:
     
  18. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zm0FvEn5CU

    Logo trailer
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3JuE7Is7I
     
  19. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    60 fps \o/

    Also from the Game Informer preview:
    http://www.gameinformer.com/games/sonic_forces/b/playstation4/archive/2017/03/17/sonic-forces-extended-gameplay-reveal-demo.aspx
     
  20. That is a very pretty video game.

    Also GameInformer has a whole article up with a longer look.