Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.
Is it me or does Infinite's origins feel off between Episode Shadow/the comic, and the game itself? The game tries to imply Infinite was a creation of Eggman and everyone presumes that he was made in the final base area of the game, but then the other content swoops in and establishes he had a life before becoming Infinite. It's notable because he does exactly what Shadow does in terms of sparing someone on the grounds of believing he's shamed them, and yet despite an explicit personal grudge against Shadow in the DLC, this isn't even remotely hinted at, implied or anything in the main game. Almost like the game was completed first, and then the DLC and comic tried to patch their story in after the fact with the game not being made for this in mind.
It also doesn't help that unless you read the comic in the first place, nothing explains what happened to Omega and the context of the Shadow DLC (that being of Shadow confronting Infinite right after Omega got rekt) barely functions whatsoever. It's only thanks to the comic and DLC being free and all that this isn't as stupid as it could be, though the fact that it leads to basically one scene of angry Omega and nothing else also means the whole emphasis on it is, like many things with Forces, a very lacking payoff of any sort.
This game can best be summed up as Style over Substance.
My biggest gripe with the game is its overuse of automation, so paranoid that the player would break the engine if they actually got to screw around with it. The complete antithesis of Mario Odyssey in nearly every way, every action you have changes depending on how the level scripts you into being able to do it. You reach a curve in the Death Egg and it's an automatic grapple-drift section without warning. That's not exactly engaging, and certainly barely qualifies as fun if my controls are outright changed without my input. That's sad, though, because the IDEA of using your grapple to have an extended drift sounds awesome, a solution I came up with a while ago for a grapple-in-place-of-homing-attack concept, but their execution is beyond lacking. And that there's the rub. The execution just isn't there.
Classic's gameplay is a mixed bag of improvements and new problems; the spindash was luckily fixed from the mess it was in Gens though admittedly the lack of single-button spindash has me a bit confused. His overall gameplay though, ESPECIALLY his air control (and Modern's to be honest) is just... incredibly stiff. Speaking of movement, the biggest issue I probably have is Modern's movement at low speeds. From the moment I started moving in Forces, I had to pause the game to process just how CLUNKY it felt. It's honestly bizarre; it's as if its prioritizing hard forward as your movement direction, then oddly turning you to the left/right as you angle the stick in that direction, but not rotating the character that way as much as having him walk around a fixed turning radius and *pick up speed* while doing that... except it feels slow? Like no really what the fuck?
I can definitely see how a casual gamer who enjoys sonic as-is can be OK with this game, or a kid who doesn't know better can play mindlessly and just get excited they're playing a sonic game... but that's really all they have coming from this game. Im not even going to get into the objectively terrible level design, and how the """"classic"""" music is so bad it honestly fucking *hurts,* but so far it's pretty much what I expected. A hot mess.
Ah well, at least it isn't a 100% wash like I thought it would be... At least I'm laughing at Infinite.
also jesus the flamethrower is busted.
:v: :v: :v: :v:
As much as the internet is the most important thing to happen to the whole of humanity for thousands of years, it now means every Tom, Shane & Barry can moan & bitch and a company will listen to this stupid drivel and tailor their products accordingly.
Sorry to use an old meme but this is definitely why we can't have nice things.
Luckily, there are still some renegades out there like Team Mania who go with their gut, not the ideas of 10 year olds.
Sonic Forces is the definition of a painfully average game.
Got the game last night and beat it in about 3 hours, and damn. There's so many things wrong with this game, so many things that would've been better if they just designed them differently.
I really disliked how you were jumping from one zone to the other so quickly. Like you finish Classic Green Hill then you head to Avatar's Chemical Plant then to Modern Sonic's Death Egg stage. Instead of having 3 or 4 Acts for a Zone that you play back-to-back, the game makes it feel like those stages are disjointed and gives you the illusion that you only spent 2 minutes or less in a Zone.
Other stuff like the control of all 3 characters and the bland level design is inexcusable. This game deserves it's 5/10 score, probably the most solid 5 I have ever given to a game, even Lost World felt like it had more substance than this game.
Forces is a pretty good game that succeeds Unleashed, Colors, Generations, and Lost World properly, while still doing its own thing. It's an 8/10 at the very least, potentially more, and I don't really understand why that isn't more than good enough. I prefer Colors and Lost World (both 9/10 for sure), but I'd easily put Forces over Generations (still an 8/10 game itself). I don't know where to put Unleashed.
I legitimately feel that I'm not "allowed" to say this. Apparently people like me "hold the series back" from some mysterious greatness that probably doesn't exist. It's frustrating when the opinion of a community is seen as fact because the community shares it. This happened to Lost World, now it's happening to Forces.
It's also really frustrating that I'm not "allowed" to get angry seeing a community completely dogpile a game like this without being told to "calm down". I've seen too much of this community to not get angry about at least some of it. This is a battle worth fighting for, though it shouldn't be a battle at all.
I tried to say the same thing months ago, but I was immediately singled out for not agreeing with the forums in the form of "well you didn't read the thread"... as people proceeded with their "Sonic Team is incompetent" platform, exactly what my post was talking about. How frustrating to be ignored and crossed out like that, and seemingly only because my post mentioned Rise of Lyric.
Sonic Team is not incompetent. The only actually bad games in this series are 06 (the only Sonic Team game here, which is also known to have been sabotaged), Dark Brotherhood (some Bioware garbage), and Rise of Lyric (Big Red Button is a two-bit team of has-been artists). It's frustrating to see people default to these games just being bad, when the games themselves don't support that conclusion at all.
It's very clear to me that it's not Sonic Team that doesn't know Sonic.
I finished the game in like 3 hours... I generally enjoyed...
The stages we're a little shorts in the majority but that's fine for me... The gameplay is not very different from previous games... The story is like the only thing different besides the avatar thing...
I played only the Xbox One version...
I mean that's fair, you can enjoy the game if you want and more power too you. People can get a bit angry around here, I mean the name of the site is Sonic Retro, so obviously it's going to cater to those who are fans of the original series which, whether you like this game or not, you have to at least acknowledge how different the games are, this even goes for classic Sonic's execution.
I kinda like this game myself. I'd put it around Lost World (I don't know if I like it more or less yet, it's very close) and I kinda liked that game. I think my biggest disappointment though is just how much automation there is. Boost pads everywhere, springs at the end of ramps in classic Sonic levels despite Sonic's speed seemingly being able to actually handle launching off ramps this time. Hell I don't even get the point of some of the boost pads, they just put them in the middle of the road sometimes just because they wanted to add something. I mean are they needed? Does anyone enjoy those? Does anyone enjoy playing a game and then having the game play itself a good chunk of the time? Like if they gave Sonic the ability to drift they could have taken away some boost pads in modern levels and given that control back to the player. I'd of preferred that.
Initial rage aside I think this game is going to be remembered as "ok" by most people. I think people are just getting a bit tired of "ok" though, especially after Mania showed that the series still has some life in it. It's not as bad as Sonic 06 or RoL for sure and had this game come out around the time of Sonic Colors I bet people would have loved it, but times have changed, the competition is stiffer, and after all the hype and build up and what not it's just a bit disappointing. The game could have been so much more. Hell all the boost games could have, and even Lost World, but this one in particular is a bit strange. I can't help but feeling there was some kind of development hell with this one and I'm looking forward to see what leftovers and stories are to be told from this game.
Any elaboration on this would be fantastic.
No-one's saying you're not allowed to like Forces (I'm pretty keen to get stuck into it myself), or enjoy it more than Generations/Colors, but to just say "Forces is actually good, this community is just bad" without any evidence as to why Forces is better, isn't really going to convince anyone.
To rephrase - what do you feel Forces does better than the previous 3D Sonic games?
I agree, Puyo Puyo has taught me this much. They have, however, released a game that is being currently destroyed by reviewers, and this is far from their first attempt. I feel this is something they will have to answer for at some point regardless of how we personally feel about the game.
I wonder what 3D Sonic game Sonic Team would actually want to work on. If we left them to their own devices and they didn't listen to fans or anything, just did their own thing and make a game they actually would enjoy making, what do you think they'd make?
None, probably. It feels like from the amount of changes and overlistening to the fans that they're doing these because they have to. That's it. It's my feeling at least as to why the recent games have had such a lackluster feel of passion put into it, and why decisions are made that feel like they're filling a checklist, whether it makes sense or not. They really don't want to do it anymore as if the red flags weren't obvious.
Actually, here's the biggest complaint I have with a level. I don't know what the stage is called, but it's the avatar level in the final area. I can't for the life of me see what the fuck is going on in that level, the scenery is so busy it hurts.
Well, the Metacritic score has finally emerged. I've only checked the PS4 release but eh. I won't spoil the surprise.
It's not Red levels of '06 at least, but it's surprisingly not too far away from it...
I'm really interested to know how this game would have fared had Mario Odyssey (shining example of 3D adventure/platforming) and Sonic Mania (shining example of a Sonic game) not come out so near to it.
I like Forces but you're still kinda wrong. It doesn't succeed Colors and Generations well, because most of everything about it's gameplay is worse. Sonic doesn't control quite as good, the levels are more basic in terms of layout (though the aesthetics are more original). And it doesn't succeed Lost World in general, because basically nothing about the game is like Lost World.
I think in general the internet makes it really easy for sites dedicated to specific interests to become echo-chambers, and with a series as old as this, the actual people involved in the fandom have been around so long it's easy to see why they'd become jaded if they've had years of games not meeting their expectations, regardless of whether they're "okay" games despite that. In their view, accepting a game like Forces that's so against their tastes does hold the series back, from becoming their view of quality for the series.
Also, Rise of Lyric, Chronicles and 06 are NOT the only bad Sonic games. Hell, in terms of tiers, Rise of Lyric is probably more over-hated than any other game (it's not actually good, mind you). Stuff like Labyrinth, Shadow, Secret Rings, and Lost World 3DS all have glaring and obvious issues that basically make some of them a chore just to play through a single level, and in the longrun can create an experience that's a total bore in some cases and an absolute insult in others. I hate Shadow more than 06 jsut for what it did to Shadow's character and the absolute failure at any sort of mature storytelling in the game. It's really the thing that made me basically assume every new Sonic game is going to have a terrible plot -- and I'm usually right. Hell, some people really like Knuckles Chaotix, and that game actually has more boring level design than this game, and it's a fucking dull mess that I could never complete as a result.
Listen, if people are making you feel unwelcome for liking a game, and it's not just because they don't, I'm sure you can actually report that or some shit. But they're as entitled to their opinions as you are. I think people here love to exaggerate the things they say -- hell I just did it myself with the amount of pure rage I have for Shadow the hedgehog, and that can create what appears to be a hostile atmosphere. But it's not one. It's just a bunch of people that are really passionate about a series they like, and want it to be closer to the thing that made them like it in the first place.
Anyhoo, Infinite screaming and laughing like an idiot in Episode Shadow is something that REALLY needed to happen more in the main game. They didn't let O'brien flex his vocal cords enough.
You're allowed to like anything you want as long as it isn't hurting anyone. I loved Suicide Squad last year despite it's reception with the general audience because it was the kind of mindless fun I wanted from DC superhero movie for a long time. If you feel like the game is good and you enjoyed it that's all that matters.
However objectively you can't act as though the game didn't have any flaws.
Classic Sonic's levels are a bore to play through. If they aren't breaking and not responding properly on scripted sequences, the physics make it hard to enjoy anything in the levels. They are a huge step down from Mania and even Generations. They don't even look nice and they go for this generic chiptune music that sounds nothing like Sonic music.
The Avatar is affected by the bad physics too. It's annoying to die over and over because they just jump straight over a platform instead of landing like they are supposed to. I lost the Infinite fight a couple times because the Avatar slides when he stops walking making him fall right into Infinite's attack. The Wispon's are pretty mediocre too. I died trying to use the drill one in 3D because he charged right out of the stage.
The only part of the game I got any true enjoyment out of was Modern Sonic's stages. And we only get 8 of those. And each of those can be beat in 2 minutes. I got all the Red Rings the first time in a lot of them taking away ANY replay value. Boosting at the wrong time and falling out of the stage wasn't cool either.
The worst part of this is the fact that they had 4 years to work on this. 4 years to make a 3 hour game with ALL modern Sonic stages. 4 years to fix Lost World's flaws and turn that game into being as amazing as it could have been. 4 years to do anything but make a rushed project that was probably put together in a year. Generations was probably put together in a year after they made sure Colors reception was good but they had the level designers from that game work on Generations and it was able to be the best it could be.
This game is really mediocre. It is every thing the fandom has been made fun of for the last 15 year in one game. It could have been amazing. It wasn't.
You can like it if you want but no one who dislikes it for any valid reason is wrong for it. In fact us calling them out on these things could be what we need to finally get some improvement out of these games.
I hope after this game we never see Green Hill or Chemical Plant again by the way. I think the Death Egg can peace out as well. It's just, it's enough. This has been the theme in every Sonic game since Generations it has to stop.
Jesus Christ, just beat the 3rd Infinite fight. I can't believe they just straight up copied the Metal Sonic fight. This game is less than half baked, feels like it needed another year or two of dev time.
As someone who has liked something about almost everything Sonic's tried to be over the years, I think I'm in a unique position to gleam an unusual amount of enjoyment out of Sonic Forces. Plenty about it appeals to me on paper, and even in execution, I'm enjoying myself. I like the classic levels, I like the boost stages, I like the cheesy buttrock soundtrack and the big dumb story reminiscent of the Adventure games.
But where something like Sonic Mania knew exactly what it wanted to be and delivered on that in the purest way possible, Sonic Forces crumbles under the weight of its own ambitions in trying to appeal to EVERY SINGLE SECT of the very divided Sonic fandom all at once. Where it really falls to pieces is the level design. DF Retro compared it to fanmade levels in Mario Maker, like the stages were haphazardly thrown together in a stage builder, and that's sadly an apt comparison a lot of the time. Tons of enemies placed along narrow corridors just so you can flashily zip through them, a continuous string of burst wisps that you have to bounce through, the layout literally dictated through generic platforms and building blocks, and they're all SO short. I'm hitting S-ranks and getting times comparable to my best runs in Generations on my VERY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH of these stages, and I'm barely doing anything.
I'm having fun with it, but I can already tell it has nowhere near the mechanical depth or replayability of Generations, or even Unleashed. I'm still having a good time jumping back in and trying to work with what little potential the skill ceiling gives me, but there's not much.
The characters and voice acting are some of the best parts, but even that's an example of this haphazard lack of cohesion. It's like they went, "Okay, Adventure fans want more STAKES and characters, let's have another apocalyptic threat, but this time, let's have it actually SUCCEED!" But then at the same time they went, "Ah, but these Sonic fans over here want Sonic to be light-hearted and jokey, and not take itself too seriously! We need to appeal to them, too!" That's why you get crap like Sonic being tortured for six months, but coming out of it cracking jokes like nothing happened. The story has this weird tonal mish-mash. It's like if SatAM's backstory and setting were filtered through AoStH's slapstick approach.
Raging Gazebo: "New allies, same old tricks" C+
IGN Italy: 6/10
IGN Spain: 5.5/10
GamesRadar: "A short game of short levels, yet desperately short of real ideas" 2.5/5
Current aggregate metascores:
OpenCritic: 54 "Weak" (10 reviews)
Metacritic: 55 (Switch, 6 reviews), 53 (PS4, 7 reviews)
Sonic Mania is the new "Sonic isn't what he used to be" sentence in reviews isn't it :v:
I mean with good reason, but it's just funny. And yup this all kind of lines up with what I'd give the game. a 6/10 sounds about right, maybe a 6.5 for me. To put that in perspective for me anyway, Generations is like an 8.5, Colors is like a 6.5, Unleashed is like a 7 (Day stages are an 8.5), and Mania is like between a 9 and a 9.5 for me. I enjoy this more than any Sonic game made from the time of SA2 to Secret Rings though (handhelds excluded). That was the true shit show period for the series IMO.
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