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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    In comparison to the adventure games I'd say so. You can drift and make tighter turns, you're less likely to careen off an edge by not holding up perfectly, you can jump and stomp if you want a full stop. Try rolling down a hill in windy Valley in SA1. Yes you get some good speed but good luck trying to even go in a straight line.

    High speed platforming is hard though yes, that's why they tried adding the run button in Lost World. It was a failed attempt at fixing the problem but it was a lesson learned. Given how much time they've had on this game and how it goes back to something they've done before (we think, it's not 100% confirmed that it's boost yet) I have some faith that they'll refine what they had. 2 things need to be done. Less automation and better low speed controls. I bet with more time there's a good chance they'll work on both of them.
     
  2. TimmiT

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    I had these problems on consoles, but not really on PC. 60fps feels absolutely necessary for Generations style gameplay, so hopefully Project Sonic 2017 will be 60fps on consoles. It getting a Switch version shows it's probably not that of a graphically intensive game, so I could see that happening.
     
  3. If the Boost gameplay were to return for 2017, I'd say it would be a good idea to rework the gameplay to be more like the Boost Mode from Advance 2/3. I'd say that would be a good compromise for people wanting either the Adventure Sonic or Boost gameplay.
     
  4. MegaDash

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    When you boil it down, what the Adventure games did right was incorporating Sonic platforming in 3D. They did this by making Sonic control like a faster version of Mario or Banjo Kazooie on N64, instead of an agile car that can jump and sidestep as well as drift, and by making levels that are more platforming than speed. Going fast wasn't as much of the goal as it was the reward for going through the level.

    This ratio was inverted after Sonic '06, taking the mach speed segments from that game and molding future games to that kind of stage. Now the Sonic games--at least the "Sonic stages" in them--are much more speed than platforming, while the platforming segments became short 2D obstacle courses. The Adventure games hardly ever did 2D segments, and at times when they did, they often liked to incorporate very cinematic angles rather than a camera that either projects a flat 2D perspective, or one that follows Sonic at an angle.

    Sonic '06 exacerbated the problem more than it tried to fix things, I think. Rather than having other characters show up and help you on occasion, like in Shadow the Hedgehog, the game had you switch characters on a dime and forced you to play by their rules. Tails can fly and throw weird ring bombs, so do that. Knuckles can punch and kick, so beat these guys up. Same with Shadow and Rouge. Silver's showing off the Havok physics engine, so lift and throw stuff please. Probably the only character other than Sonic that looked fun to play was Blaze.

    The thing I don't really care for with the boost gameplay is that boosting is only a button away. It's too easy, and the game has to contain that free speed boost at any given point, which means that sometimes you're just speeding along a 2D plane. Because of how fast it makes you go, the stages end up being these long obstacle course tracks rather than a playground, which is what the original Sonic games and the Adventure games felt like.

    I think SA1/2 Sonic just felt heavier in general, but still ended up controlling very loosely at high speeds. Boost Sonic, on the other hand, can't maneuver as well without drifting or strafing, so that's how those games were designed.
     
  5. Beltway

    Beltway

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    Significant levels of automation has been ingrained into 3D Sonic gameplay from the beginning, 90% of dash panels in both Adventure games are mostly there to paper up the cracks of the underlying design. I doubt that's going to change unless Sonic Team has somehow literally redone their entire approach to game design during their downtime. And for low speed controls, I don't really think they would amount to much, given the linear on-rails approach of most levels. If you ever have to slow down, it's usually just to basic platform-hopping hanging over bottomless pits, and those can usually be bypassed by a well-timed boost in the air.

    Honestly, I really wouldn't expect any changes that de-emphasized the inherent gotta-go-fast nature of the boost gameplay, if that is indeed the playstyle Sonic Team is returning to. They are entirely crafted around boost and boost management, and attempting to make a "Boost" game that downplayed that I feel would be turning them into a different game entirely--Colors in particular feels less like a "proper" boost entry, and more like a very simplified offshoot of it that goes in a different direction. You may as well revisit the groundwork of the Adventure or Lost World games, or just (re-)start from scratch by that point.
     
  6. LowSeasCaroz

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    All of this kind of reflects my opinion on Sonic Team's Boost games.
    There are numerous factors that contribute to this, but the main one for me is the lack of flow. Unless you play the levels in their Boost games to perfection, they rarely feel satisfying to play, because Sonic automatically goes fast at certain scripted points where all you really can do is watch the scripted sequence play out. I know people who are not too familiar with Sonic, and when they try out Generations, they go through both acts of Green Hill just holding right and occasionally jumping, and they end up getting S-Ranks and say "Okay, cool. I barely did anything, but I guess that was good or something."

    In the DS games, the level design doesn't just rely on scripted sequences where all you can do is watch Sonic go through the sequence and wait until the game lets you do something again. Instead, the levels contain specific gimmicks that transport Sonic around, but usually still require some sort of player input (via the trick system in Rush, gimmicks that require precise timing like the cannons in Dead Line or the swinging poles in Generations 3DS, or even simple button-mashing stuff like in Colours' Starlight Carnival) and don't completely break the flow. Using the boost is rarely necessary (Generations 3DS is an exception), but is encouraged to go to higher paths and get better ranks. The Boost Gauge was introduced in Rush as a means to instantly enter the boost mode that was introduced in Advance 2, essentially giving the player much better control over Sonic's (and Blaze's) speed, and many more possibilities to reach higher parts of a stage. That was also complimented by the controls, with the trick system and R-Dash letting you control Sonic's mid-air movement much better than before.

    Sonic Team's Boost games are just way too clunky to control and often too simplistic in their stage design to let the player really experiment with the possibilities of the Boost. The levels were either too blocky (Colours) or too straightforward (Unleashed). Generations showed some potential, but still nowhere near as much as the Rush games and Colours DS.
    And the terrible framerate in Generations (360 and PS3) and especially Unleashed makes the controls even less responsive that they aready are.

    It also doesn't help that Sonic Team is absolutely atrocious at designing fun and challenging boss battles. Unleashed's daytime bosses were not that good, Colours' were too easy (and they recyle the earlier bosses in later zones...) and Generations' HD boss battles were a complete mess. Rush Adventure, Colours DS and Generations 3DS (except Big Arm, what were they thinking...) had some of the most fun bosses in the series. Not too long and drawn out, but still challenging. Thinking about it, when was the last time Sonic Team made a game with consistently good boss battles? 2001? 1992?

    In conclusion, if they involve Dimps in the development of their next Sonic game (because I kind of doubt they'll keep making 3DS Sonic games after the western-developed Boom games sold like rubbish), then at least for the boss battles. Dimps is a fighting game developer, for god's sake, they should know what they're doing! And they just finished Xenoverse 2, JoJo and Street Fighter V, so they shouldn't be too busy, right?
     
  7. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Perhaps an unpopular opinion but I loved the Daytime bosses in Unleashed and I thought the first part of the Perfect Chaos fight and the Egg Dragoon fight from Generations were really fun.
     
  8. Yeah, this is what happened to me when I showed people Generations. It's that complete loss of control which is jarring
     
  9. Dark Sonic

    Dark Sonic

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    Generations' ranking system was complete garbage I'll give you that. I have to try to get anything other than an A or an S.

    Meanwhile Unleashed's ranking system was masochistic.
     
  10. Atendega

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    Unleashed's ranking system isn't masochistic, it just takes other things into account (besides speed). I always thought it was pretty reasonable, though maybe I'm remembering wrong.
     
  11. Unleashed's ranking system pretty much guarantees you an S Rank if you do the perfect run (or in the Werehog's case, do a bunch of QTEs to get score bonuses) so it's not really masochistic. Though it did took me a good few tries to S Rank Eggmanland and the Dark Gaia bossfight.
     
  12. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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  13. Crasher

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    I always wondered why Classic Sonic felt weird to play in Generations, even if the physics weren't exactly perfect. He always felt stiff to control when going through slopes. Never suspected they'd script the ramps to direct the player to where they're "supposed" to go, especially since it was supposed to be a recreation of the Genesis games - just seems like such a dumb decision.
     
  14. Not to mention that it's useless to spin on slopes. While this is done to gain more speed in Genesis games, it's opposite in Generations (especially in Sonic 4). And defense-wise it's more anxious to run all the time as it's easy to bump into an enemy. Luckily IIRC, the level design of Generation avoids this trope as most as possible.
     
  15. In Generations 3DS, Classic Sonic controlled very similarly to the classic games. Rolling actually gave speed.
     
  16. Beltway

    Beltway

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    This is only if you're playing it on a surface level and not looking at the finer details. The manner you get speed compared to the classics is is inconsistent, you could spindash and roll and only get moderate speed at some points while getting giant boosts of speed just by running in others. Trying to play any of the classic stages in the game like in the originals is evident of this.

    Rolling around for Casino Night's half-pipe in Generations 3DS, for example, doesn't get you the amount of momentum like you would in the same level in Sonic 2 (yet, it also at the same time isn't sloppy enough to just walk up and out of it like the half-pipe in Sonic 4's Casino Street). Playing through Mushroom Hill in particular really shows just dodgy the physics are when applied the original layout of the levels. The amount of speed gained during spindash/rolls + jumps and the manner Sonic rolls on top of the loops in the below speedrun of this level aren't possible to pull off in the original game (especially with that huge aerial jump at the beginning).



    They may be "better" than Sonic 4 (Epi. I) and Generations, but only because there's so much scripting in Sonic's momentum/level design, its enough to produce the illusion that the physics engine are just as good. It's the same case with Sonic 4 Episode II and is the main reason why people say the physics in that game are a "major" improvement over Episode I, even though the base engine is the same.

    e: Also worth clarifying that the game uses the same sound effect for the air dash/homing jump for the roll sound effect. So while it may sound like it, the player is not spamming the HA throughout the playthrough. He uses it quite a bit times in the beginning, but refrains from the HA move otherwise.
     
  17. Since everyone seems to forget we have a front page... :v (Fucking thing won't embed)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXksim589A
     
  18. Turbohog

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    I'll be honest, I didn't watch that.

    One thing I'm honestly already disappointed about is the lack of multiplayer. Some of my favorite memories with modern Sonic is playing Sonic Adventure 2 multiplayer. I wish they didn't seemingly give up on multiplayer.
     
  19. Nice, seems like SEGA are responding to fans that wanted a SA3/Generations 2
     
  20. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    I saw it, I just didn't link it cause it's non-news. :v:

    Really this is probably just a magazine making super basic observations. "It's an action adventure game, Eggman is the villain, it's probably single player", stuff that's the case with most other Sonic games. Well not the single player part but everyone always forgets that Sonic games have multiplayer.