Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

    A wise guy eh. I know how to DEAL with wise guys. Member
    1,286
    10
    18
    The Land of Waldos
    Sonic Utopia, Sonic Overture
    Apparently it wasn't a problem to achieve this 25 years ago, and it has only become exponentially easier to achieve since. Aside from this gameplay being the very medium of the game, this is not just "they put in a little less effort" it's "how in the hell does this happen". Maybe you're not understanding the sheer magnitude of difference here. Are you telling me that a single person who has only dabbled in Sonic for a couple years, not even 20 years old, can produce this in two days time at a minimum of effort, whereas teams of professional developers who have invested their lives in Sonic for over a decade and have had multiple opportunities of years long projects and million dollar budgets, just can't be arsed to do it. Why put in the effort even though it should in theory be even faster and easier for them to accomplish than Tpot and then some by a landslide. None of that makes any sense.
     
  2. Tiller

    Tiller

    Member
    836
    0
    16
    HDK & World Runner
    I want to know how many concepts Sonic Team have scrapped over the years if this is the end result of multiple iterations on a singular gameplay style. It really seems like no one really has any vision of how the game needs to play and building the mechanics to get them there. They take the well received elements and tack them on like a check list rather than trying to visualize a cohesive whole. In particular, it's like they white box the levels and then have to carve a tunnel that Sonic is pigeonholed through, rather than building interesting the set pieces around a gameplay area. It all seems quite backwards.

    You can see this at some of the Egg Gate gameplay where the important setpieces are simply connected via 3D rail sections that make no logical sense. Not that they need to, but it becomes blatantly obvious the rails are there to restrict the player to a barely interactive spectacle thriller. It's a distinct lack of creative vision and it isn't like it is hard to do. IE: There aren't trains shuttling cargo between the sections on those rails which gives them some world context, there aren't ships to run on to get you from A to B despite having a bunch in the background, its just a bunch of nothing to get him to the next interior setpiece where the 2D starts up and they give you back at least some of the controls.
     
  3. I watched all the story cutscenes and I gotta say, the story doesn't seem too bad. I mean, it's not great, but I'd put it a step above many other recent Sonic games like Generations, Lost World, and Colors. Infinite is generic as fuck, and some of the lines are really juvenile (why is everything about “kicking butts”), but I don't know. It's not exactly offensive if you get what I mean.

    There's a lot of characters that we haven't seen represented in a main sonic game for a long time like Chaotix and Shadow, and they're dialogue isn't nearly as poorly written or cringey as it used to be. The voices are also better, with the exception of Rouge, I mean ugh I can't listen to her anymore. But yeah, Eggman once again steals the show with his lines and I like the taste of darker tones thrown in. Like I said, it's nothing fantastic, but I'd give it a solid B-.
     
  4. My reaction to the game now that it's been leaked:

    Hoo boy. I genuinely was not expecting it to be this hilarious. It obviously wasn't going to be "good" so I was hoping for "so bad it's good", and here we are. I'm genuinely happy, this is everything I wanted since the Casino Forest reveal thoroughly destroyed my 'actual' interest.

    Where do I even start with this? Both the marketing and the game itself has been a complete disaster. Classic fans are going to be pissed off by the awful physics, awful level design, short levels and re-re-return of old zones. Adventure fans are going to be pissed off by Chaos and Shadow being defeated in cutscenes when they were advertised as returning villains along with Metal and Zavoc. Fans of Tails are going to be pissed off by his uselessness and Sonic-worship being dialed up to eleven. Fans of boost gameplay are going to be pissed off by the "one step to the side, three steps backwards off a cliff" approach they've taken to the game design. Fans of a more serious Sonic plot are going to be disappointed by what's effectively another Colours-style plot, and fans of a more simplistic Sonic plot are going to be disappointed by all the edge. This game seems like it's intentionally designed to alienate everyone.

    But of course, it doesn't stop there! The "it's only the first level, it doesn't have to be challenging or long or non-linear... or interesting... or fun" Sunset Heights defense squad are getting blown the fuck out by the fact that it's in the middle of the game. The final boss is half Lyric, half Nega-Wisp Armor, and yet it's referred to in-game as the Death Egg Robot for no fucking reason. You don't fight it on the Death Egg and it doesn't look like a Death Egg Robot, so it's pure canon-fucking fanservice. All the level music seems to use samey-sounding synthesizers that don't fit the game at all, so far the only track I've heard that I truly, truly like is the orchestral theme and Infinite's theme. On top of the returning Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Death Egg and Metropolis (in name only?), there's a "new" zone called City. Not only does it set a new record for most generic zone name in the series, it's in a game that has a separate 'zone' called Metropolis! Are you fucking kidding me?

    The plot is the main thing that makes the game hilarious for me. The combination of Colours-style writing and Adventure 2 edge doesn't work at all. Infinite is easily my favourite character in the game because of how stupid and over the top he is. He has no motivation beyond "Evil villain fueled by hate" and doesn't even betray Eggman in the end, so he basically serves no purpose except edgy dialogue and edgy theme song. Eggman could've done everything with the phantom ruby on his own. On top of that, the plot barely seems to make sense, and I don't understand how the Mania tie-in works at all. Some of the dialogue is laugh-out-loud funny for other reasons than edge, as well. Sonic's "it's been generations since I saw you" had me gobsmacked, and Tails' "true dat" in the ending is like a fucking punchline to the entire game.

    Sorry if this post is an incomprehensible rambling mess. tl;dr Forces is a beautiful clusterfuck of lazy, rushed, recycled ideas that somehow manages to be terrible in all sorts of unique and fascinating ways. I think I'd have as much fun playing this game as I do watching Birdemic, so maybe I'll buy it super cheap on Steam someday if they ever remove the Denuvo.
     
  5. Laughingcow

    Laughingcow

    Resident Edgelord PHD Member
    580
    2
    18
    Might as well ask this:

    Why couldn't Shadow Chaos Control and beat up Infinite like he did his clone? Infinite just makes holograms so time stop would work on him.

    Why would the Phantom Ruby have any effect on a psychic like Silver? Dude is literally all mental power, you'd think there'd be a natural immunity to this kind of mind jacking shit.

    Avatar beat Infinite with just a gun....Yeah.
     
  6. Beltway

    Beltway

    Temptive Bongwater, Sealed in Can Member
    1,527
    88
    28
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    college courses / anime trash crusader
    I don't agree.

    Adventure 2 (regarding Sonic/Shadow levels) was the point when the level design for Sonic games --under Iizuka and Toyoda's tenure as Sonic Team USA's sole level designers-- started to become heavily streamlined for the sole sake of speed--including but not limited to static, repetitive level layouts (and by extension, the majority of levels having corridor levels, inorganic structures, and tons of bottomless pits), a significant lack of level mechanics/gimmicks, and excessive automation/scripting (dash panels, grinding rails, HA chains, etc.) among other things, and Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog were clearly built upon that philosophy of level design.

    By the time new designers were brought in for the seventh generation of Sonic games (Sonic 2006, Secret Rings, and Unleashed), the damage was done; what Iizuka and Toyoda had laid down had pretty much become the de facto guidelines on how to build Sonic levels. The boost gameplay that took over come Rush and Unleashed was just taking the game design mentality to its logical extreme of rewriting the existing gameplay around it, so platforming is a complete afterthought. The boost games are fine for the flashy, spectacle-driven fast-paced games they are, but whatever gameplay potential they have are far better realized in another genre (preferably racing games) as they make for absolutely shoddy platformers.

    Sonic games need designers that come from a completely fresh (re: not post-2001 Sonic Team or Dimps) perspective on their approach to designing Sonic games; namely remembering Sonic is a platformer first and foremost and that speed is a trademark of Sonic gameplay, not the only thing that mattered in the game design. The Genesis games (in spite of the heavy marketing) and Mania are excellent examples of this; there's far more to the levels than just constantly running fast (and if you try and play them that way, you're not going to get far). Mania could had turned out as a completely different game if Iizuka was responsible for designing the level maps, rather than supervising their construction; same goes for Sonic 3&K and Adventure for that matter (where he was either working under someone else or was one of several designers pitching in).

    All of Dimps games are/were made under Sonic Team's design parameters, Dimps' Sonic games aren't made independently from Sonic Team. We also have accounts and evidence that what we know as Rise of Lyric was far from the game BRB set out to make, and was twisted / rushed into the final product we have today due to interference by other parties. Not exactly fair examples to use.

    Even if we were to use them to caution against the idea of handing the Sonic IP to other developers...the simple counterargument to this is that we now live in a reality where a group of community members made a official Sonic game that has that was critically received better than over 15 years' worth of Sonic Team games, is selling well, and was made on a fraction of the chief studio's available resources (development time, staff, budget, tools, etc.). We have a legitimate game in Mania that we cause use as proof that people (fans, reviewers, consumers, Sega themselves) can start looking elsewhere for quality Sonic games.

    Obviously Sega shouldn't just throw the IP to just anybody, and looking for a new owner wouldn't be a easy task (and might even require the IP to be put on the shelf for a bit, in the context of new games). But it really shouldn't be impossible for Sega to shop the series around to available divisions or studios, and settle on a capable candidate that meets some necessary qualifications--including but not limited to having a passionate interest in and understanding of the Sonic series, and have a proven track record of consistently quality products. Sega managed to find that in Taxman, Stealth, and their friends at PWG, and the result worked wonders for them. Is it really hard to imagine being able to find that in a fully developed studio?

    Because Sonic Team sure as hell isn't even trying to make the argument that they can live up to those qualifications, especially so if Forces is supposed to represent four years of labor from the studio. What does it say about the developer when even people outside the Sonic community and reviewers are joining the fanbase in pointing out that of the two Sonic games being released this year, it is the game made by a band of talented fans that has more thought and craftsmanship put into its design, and is the overall better product.

    Even when given more time to put together a Sonic game than almost any of their previous games in the past, the studio still can't be bothered to get their shit together in any meaningful way. At this point, there is absolutely no excuse. They've had their (many) chances. Next.
     
  7. Tiller

    Tiller

    Member
    836
    0
    16
    HDK & World Runner
    So is there a reason why that at the start of the game Green Hill is fucked up with the sand and fallen death Egg robots? Isn't that supposed to happen after Eggman takes over? Sunset Heights still being in play after 6 months of Eggman takeover also makes no sense either since that's where Sonic gets captured, but that's more forgivable than how the level design plays more like an opening stage. Everything seems so slapdash and out of order as far as progression goes.
     
  8. Frostav

    Frostav

    Member
    494
    146
    43
    Sonic Team does not possess pride. They don't have pride in their work. They don't give a fuck. Simple as that.

    All you need to do is look at the youtube comments for any video on Forces. There are a LEGION of dumbass children (or mental children) who will excuse this shit. Sonic makes bank. And that's all that matters.

    Nintendo, to provide a point of comparison, has pride and a reputation to uphold. They put outstanding care and love into their work, because they feel a need to uphold Nintendo's reputation as masters of game design, and because they care.
     
  9. Twilightzoney

    Twilightzoney

    Tech Member
    353
    0
    16
    Elgin, IL And Hampshire
    Unleashed and Generations Stuff and Custom Works
    Well I could understand having issues of doing that in 3d. Having about 12 people doing modeling and trying to keep to certain metrics to abide to physics is probably bound to screw up since someone is bound to make errors when you have more people. More people faster work gets done but more mistakes can happen. I know this from experience since modding Gens and getting metrics right is a pain in the ass. So I can only imagine trying to get Classic metrics correct in a way that can make it easy to develop for. I'm sure it can be done, I figure its not worth it though. Who knows that's just my opinion. Could also be their workflow pattern needs to be changed up to make building things quicker and easier for them.

    But yeah seeing forces makes me laugh at how they are doing modeling work that even I could end up doing better or hell even level design. I expected some Generations boost gameplay but expanded upon more but I get more constricted and taken away experience.
     
  10. Retroman

    Retroman

    Member
    727
    1
    18
    The cutscenes suck, full of cringe and shitty writing.
    This game can die and rot in the bin - it's going to be shit. Guarantee it's only going to be good for playthroughs due to the entertainment value of how bad it is.

    Sonic Team should be disbanded and Sega should get their collective heads out of their backside and find and hire fans to create 3D sonic games from people who know what makes Sonic and gameplay great!
    Their biggest mistake was making a game cater to an age-group. Sonic Mania doesn't need to be 2 cool 2 edgy, it's a simple game that can be picked up and enjoyed by all ages.

    Make a game that adhears to basic gaming principles, consistency, balance and fun with good controls and you protect your brand while preventing it from continuing to be a bad meme.
     
  11. RGX

    RGX

    Animator Member
    276
    4
    18
    US
    Absolutely hits the nail on the head.

    Other than disappointing visuals for a modern console game, stiff animations in cut-scenes, lack of Drift, running on top of water, and other missing game mechanics that appeared in the other modern games.

    And then we have this blatant watered-down rehash: (WARNING: FINAL BOSS SPOILER)
    They're not even trying anymore
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Retroman

    Retroman

    Member
    727
    1
    18
    I saw that. I'm not angry, just very disappointed.
     
  13. RikohZX

    RikohZX

    Member
    425
    9
    18
    Iizuka or some higher up really fucking loves the Colors final boss, for some reason; enough so to keep rehashing it for no good reason whatsoever. Then again he also loves Wisps and they honestly serve no real point in Forces again either.
     
  14. Hitlersaurus Christ

    Hitlersaurus Christ

    Not a nazi, maybe Jesus, definitely a dinosaur Member
    584
    34
    28
    glorious nippon
    SNOIC GENERATONS PLUS
    I'm pretty sure that they moved that level to the start of the game so you would play as Modern Sonic first. The person who leaked the premise of Forces and the custom character back when it was still Project 2017 said the avatar would be the first character you play as. If the game started with the curscene that plays after modern green hill that would still be true. But I guess someone realized that it wouldn't be a good idea to play as Modern Sonic for the first time an hour or so into the game.
     
  15. Ritz

    Ritz

    Subhedgehog Member
    Architecture is a field that has several thousand people working in tandem on a single project, all adhering to the same metrics and guidelines with minimal error. The fact that we don't have buildings collapsing at random (In North America) goes to show that we've pretty much got consistency in construction down to a science. The tools and methodologies of architecture and level design are highly analogous. All it'd take to bring this consistency to Sonic is a lead designer who actually understands what they need to achieve.
     
  16. urlogic

    urlogic

    Member
    75
    0
    6
    As someone who watched gameplay of the entire game start to finish, you all sound like beaten house wives who can't leave. Sonic Forces is an unmitigated disaster. I'll be surprised if it gets more than 4s and 5s out of 10 from reviewers. People are going to be mad, unless their standards are very, very low. Maybe they'll release a good sonic movie tie in game, but this game isn't even worth the money. I don't think I'm ever gonna get hyped for a sonic release ever again cause they finally released something worse than sonic 4 in quality, after 4 years of development. The poor quality has to be the reason they lowered the price to $39.99.
     
  17. S0LV0

    S0LV0

    Sonic Generations Helpdesk Tech Member
    586
    1
    0
    Spagonia
    Abusing SMPS
    Guilty. I saw this parallel after I literally became one of those for a few years, which is why I tried to stop posting and paying attention to Sonic when I saw Forces going downhill. Uh, whoops.
     
  18. Twilightzoney

    Twilightzoney

    Tech Member
    353
    0
    16
    Elgin, IL And Hampshire
    Unleashed and Generations Stuff and Custom Works
    I really doubt they care is the point of it all to try to get it to work. To be honest Generations and Unleashed I've had no problem with the level design actually think the best design is still Unleashed for 3d level design (say what you will about QTEs.).

    It still takes a lot of time to get something like that to work. Either you can get it to work and have it look generic. Or have more artistic freedom with some scripting. I honestly don't mind Forces to me just screams lazy compared to Unleashed and Generations to me. In those games they still used template models and just adjusted to a path which is what they should be doing. I just think they need a shake up in their workflow to get stuff out quicker if they have this quality of work. I believe others have said this as well they need to have a faster workflow for this kinda stuff.

    And comparing architecture to video game dev is a bit unfair I would say lol. I really think it comes down to is $$$.
     
  19. Mana

    Mana

    Good! Great! Awesome! Outstanding! Amazing! Member
    407
    88
    28
    Where are the people who swore to me that I was wrong about the game only being $40 due to having a short length now?
     
  20. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

    A wise guy eh. I know how to DEAL with wise guys. Member
    1,286
    10
    18
    The Land of Waldos
    Sonic Utopia, Sonic Overture
    I'm not even sure what you're getting at. The way the physics respond to the terrain is much like how it worked with the Genesis games and adaptations of them. It is based on normals instead of heightmaps or pixel sensors but the results are essentially the same (with normals being much more accurate).
    The modeling has nothing to do with that and even so it's perfectly doable to have model equivalents of the tiles and chunks used for 2d games. In fact a lot of the terrain they have in the modern games shows they're quite capable of it. Again if these were things they were capable of handling 25 years ago with much more tricky and tedious workflows then it makes no sense it can't be done now. The concern with terrain shaping comes down to collision which is simple to create and the bulk of the work otherwise is in cosmetic detail. It's clear they have all of that down very well, but with no gameplay to utilize it.
    If you aren't convinced I can and will make a demonstration level out of Tpot's engine with 3d graphics. I made the test map you see in the video already.