Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    I remember when it first was shown feeling the exact same way. The main three acts should have been unlocked in a linear fashion, and the other three acts should have been accessed by hidden optional goal rings within the main acts.
     
  2. Endgame

    Endgame

    Formerly The Growler Member
    I was thinking more along the lines of a mixture of the original Sonic Adventure, and a LEGO game's 'HUB' world (...sort of)
     
  3. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    I really enjoyed exploring Sonic Unleashed's hub areas--non-entrance stage parts too. They were lively and seemed to have a nice purpose (well, the entrance stages more-so, but still).
     
  4. Aquova

    Aquova

    Professional nerd in training Member
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    Seriously though, branching paths are the #1 thing I want in a new 3D Sonic game, or even in Sonic Mania. It goes an incredibly long way to making the game more fleshed out or replayable by having ways to vary up each consecutive playthrough. There are several ways they could do it, and I would be happy to see any of them. It's not unheard of so far in the Sonic series, in fact I think the branching paths was the best idea they had for Shadow, even if it was implemented poorly. The iOS port of Sonic 2 also had the Hidden Palace Zone that could be accessed by taking an alternate route. It just seems very archaic this day and age to continue using the same linear level structure they introduced in 1991.
     
  5. Nova

    Nova

    オ カ エ リ ナ サ λ Site Staff
    Maybe have a staight-shot game with level after level, no hub world. Once the game is finished, you get a level select. Ala Sonic 3, sort of.

    However, in certain levels you have alternative routes that take you to a different end to the zone which leads to a different level. You could have speedy gameplay with real reasons to branch off and try new routes. These then become selectable in the Level Select function.
     
  6. Beltway

    Beltway

    Temptive Bongwater, Sealed in Can Member
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    college courses / anime trash crusader
    On the talk of hubworlds, I wouldn't be opposed to a 3D hubworld system, though that's not to say I wouldn't complain if Sonic 2017 had the standard level-by-level selection of most of the 2D games as well as the non-Adventure 1/2006/Unleashed 3D titles. Namely due to Sonic Team I feel having never really gotten a hubworld done right on the basic level.

    IMO, the ideal approach for a hubworld system with Sonic would be something akin to the likes of Spyro or Diddy Kong Racing: Each "world" of the game had its own self-contained hubworld, that had direct "gate" entries to each level/racecourse, but was also decently sized enough for the player to explore and look around. Unleashed was the closest towards this approach, but still had some serious issues. Namely with its medal tollgate issues, which blocked off access to later acts unless you grinded for medals. I also didn't like how they hubworlds themselves were split up between speaking to townspeople and using levels; or that you could actually get injured or die in them either. The hubworlds also suffered hard from requiring the player being required to backtrack to previous worlds in order to progress, as well as having to talk to NPCs to figure where to go next. And speaking on a more personal stance / cosmetic note, I also can't say I'm fond of having access to acts be metal plastic platforms; they don't fit the location and feel more like a metagame.

    On a different note, I think a hubworld approach similar to Super Mario 3D World's could world as well for Sonic. I really liked how that game used a sort of level select / hubworld hybrid setup. You had more freedom than a standard hubworld--you could move Mario and co. around, and make them jump and explore the immediate area. But the main stages were strung together in a linear fashion (with optional levels that required green stars placed away from the main path), and traveling through the worlds themselves were also in a linear direction (the clear pipes); though you could also use a world map to move around the worlds.

    You can also count me as another person who would like to see the branching system (one of Shadow the Hedgehog's sole strengths, even if it wasn't perfect at it) revisited for a Sonic game too. That would definitely help extend the replay value for Sonic games, especially since due to the style of gameplay and the structure of the levels (Genesis-styled levels, anyway) they usually don't have end up having 60+ individual levels like other platformers (well, Colors tried anyway, but half of the acts per zone were obviously were using recycled level design, and felt more akin to filler acts to pad the game's length).
     
  7. Lobotomy

    Lobotomy

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    I love hub worlds, I even like the ones in Sonic Unleashed, but, as people have been saying, and as I've been implementing in my own 3D Platformer, the hubs NEED to be made interesting. Give the player things to do that can't be done in the regular levels. Give the hubs platforming elements. It has to be fun, or it's just a very elaborate menu that has needless complications to artifically pad the game out.

    What I'm doing, personally, is not too far off from what Skyrim or The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time does. You have a sparse world full of things, and you go to certain doors, caves, gateways, trapdoors, and what have you, to get to the dungeons, where the meat of the fun resides. In the case of my own game, the "dungeons" are straight platforming levels or story missions. I took heavy inspiration from Sonic Adventure in this regard, but added sparseness, and I want to tie the levels into the local environment a bit better than SA did.

    It is not enough to just have a landmass, though. There needs to be entertainment in the hub that can't be found anywhere else, and despite the actual implementation of this being piss-poor, Sonic '06 actually showed this kind of potential, with the Sonic Man missions, and the Box Puzzles, and whatnot. I would have liked these silly little side missions a lot, if I didn't have to sit through twenty minutes of loading screens apiece. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever for that game to require loading screens in those places, aside from them only having a year to make the game. They could have let the assets sit in the map, next to the NPC who activates the mission.

    People say that hub worlds are one of the worst parts of Sonic games, but I don't think that at all. I just think that Sonic Team need to find a way to make hub worlds more 'Sonic', you know? Give the hedgehog a reason to go gallivanting around town, buying churros and kebabs, talking to people, and doing things. Sonic Unleashed was a good FIRST STEP, but if it was more elaborated upon, and streamlined, I think they would be a more welcome element of the modern games. Add missions that make sense, and don't require loading to begin. It really isn't that hard, especially if a lone wolf scrub programmer like myself can mock something like that up.
     
  8. SonicBurst

    SonicBurst

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    Sonic: Project Crimson
    To see, that we have another dark Sonic The Hedgehog Game, makes me happy. I wonder why Classic Sonic is there. Maybe an Spiritual successor to Sonic Generations? I mean Sonic Lost World was the spiritual successor to Sonic Colors. I have the slight feeling that Mephiles will have his revenge. But why are three Doctor Robotnik Robots attacking the city? ...We will know it on Holiday 2017 or earlier. Anyways, i am very excited for this Game, since it looks promising. Can't wait to see some Gameplay for this stuff!
     
  9. Multi Battler

    Multi Battler

    real lifed to death Member
    I don't know. The effort it takes to develop a good hub world... Past games have lacked an option to play through stages in any order you want without having a hub world or stage select screen.
     
  10. Fenrir

    Fenrir

    Eh. Member
    I've always enjoyed hubs, but honestly, there's one thing I've felt each and every hubworld in Sonic history has severely lacked: Reasons to not just go right to your next destination the minute you spawn back in there. SA1's hub is arguable, but if you're going to give me a sandbox that literally doesn't need to be there, then let me do some crazy shinnanigans/tricks/going-fast-shit to find some goodies. I'm not talking Green Hill Paradise or Utopia levels of exploration, but gime me some reason to want goof off in the hub, you know?

    Honestly though, with Classic Sonic once again tagging along, any possible hub will probably be 2D.
     
  11. TheOcelot

    TheOcelot

    Scooty Puff Jr sucks! Member
    I'm a fan of hub-worlds. For example, the ones in Spyro PS1 games, the smaller ones from Crash Bandicoot 2 & 3 or the very basic ones you get in games like Sonic Colors. They are easy to navigate and fit nicely with the design of the respective game.

    That said, I am not a fan of large hub worlds in Sonic games. All I want is for Sonic to move on from stage to stage with no messing around in a hub-world like with Adv 2, Heroes or Colors (and to a slightly lesser extent SLW). I honestly think it's far easier to tell a good story with Sonic moving on from location to location without ending up back in a large hub-world after each level. The simplicity of Adv 2, Colors, Gens & SLW's map works fine; you can just move onto the next stage straightaway or replay any as much as you like.

    When I think of Adventure 1, I often find it confusing trying work out where to go/which route to take in Mystic Ruins and by the time you've completed Sonic's story you then have to go through the hub worlds again with the other characters, by which time it becomes tedious and repetitive. I appreciate in games like Adv1 and Unleashed that they went to the effort of making the hub-worlds more immersive; collecting sun & moon medals and puzzles which require switching between Werehog & Modern Sonic etc, but I just want get on with the main gameplay in the normal stages and let the story progress as you move through each level.

    I'm expecting Project 2017 to stick with the more basic hub-world structure from Colors.
     
  12. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    Not a huge fan of Hub Worlds either. I think a Sonic game should have a pretty fast pace.

    If they absolutely have to include a hub world, I'd prefer to see it as a complete optional extra.
     
  13. The hub worlds were designed to give a sense of control to the player--and to make the game more story driven. There's lots of extra lore/goodies for players to find, (At least, in 06 and Sa1), or if they just want to go where they're "supposed" to, then they can do that too. There's tonnes of extras that have been put into those Hub worlds. (Medals for example, or side missions). Honestly, if it's done right, it can be an enjoyable addition.
     
  14. Laura

    Laura

    Brightened Eyes Member
    Thing is, the expansive hub worlds in Adventure were often annoying. Finding the stones is easy now (we've played Adventure a million times over :v: ), but it's frustrating for a first time run. Sonic 06's hub worlds were just confusing messes.

    Also, I can't think of any side missions in the hub worlds that were actually decent. They always seemed like useless filler to me. Not to say that hub world side missions couldn't be done for a Sonic title, but I'm unimpressed with past results :colbert:
     
  15. I'm not really a fan of hub worlds. However if it isn't too intrusive I wouldn't mind seeing what their engine can do on Next-Gen. I hope that if they decide to do the Modern-Classic switch style then they keep the 2D to classic and the 3D to modern. I wish they would have been a bit more original gameplay wise but hey Generations was a safe move so this probably is too.
     
  16. Oh we're talking about hub worlds? Don't mind if I bring my two bounce pads to the matter!

    While Project 2017 is going to have the same gameplay structure of Generations with 3D Modern stages (whether it's strictly 3D is up in the air) and 2D Classic stages, I'd say a more expansive hubworld would be really cool to see. I personally think Modern Sonic games should be more in line with modern games nowadays, it should be more an immersive experience than just playing through random stages because video game. It's what I love about games like Adventure and Unleashed, there's a sense of cohesiveness along with all the cartooniness. Adventure's hubworld was relatively big but it was never really that much of an issue to navigate through and besides you had Tikal to tell you where to go if you were ever confused on where to go. And it also helps that the hub worlds are connected to the stages, it's like an evolution of 3&K's level transitions if you think about it. As for Unleashed, they're pretty small so it's way easier to go to the places you need to go in the hubs if Adventure's hubs scare you.

    But of course, hubs worlds has been done poorly and surprise, it's from the worst games in the series. 06's hubs were way too big and not very fun to explore and there's nothing very memorable about them either and I guess the same can apply to Rise of Lyric's hubs as well but RoL's hubs feels more painful to go through due to the characters moving much slower than the average Sonic game, it's like going through the hubs as Silver in 06. Not very fun but just because it has been done poorly in the past doesn't mean they couldn't give it another go. I mean, a more serious and intense story in a Sonic game has been done poorly in the past as well but 2017 seems to be bringing that intensity back while keeping it relatively light-hearted.

    So yeah, those are my thoughts. Can't wait for next year to BOOST PAD by and we get to hear more info on the game, atleast know the title.
     
  17. Ritz

    Ritz

    Subhedgehog Member
    I loved SA1's adventure fields as much as anyone at the time, but I've grown out of hub worlds entirely. Functionally, any good level design they feature gets old quick when you have to replay the same segments every time you want to access a stage. And good design in hub worlds is rare, since they're always situated as breather periods, and so actually challenging the player in that space is bad form (and a waste of time, anyway- why would you ever be allowed to game over in a hub world?).

    Thematically, I hate hub worlds when basing an entire world around one central location quashes any real sense of adventure. No matter how far you travel, you're just going to wind up right back where you started, in this dinky little space that gets a little less interesting every time you see it, even as they're tacking new bits on. I was absolutely crestfallen when Brave Fencer Musashi went from this explosive point-to-point intro chapter just to dump me in this village full of ordinary people that I knew were going to send me on dumb fetch quests- ruined the concept for me forever, and that was a good hub. Take whatever resources you'd have to allocate for a hub world and pour them into 1-2 more good, actual stages without any filler.
     
  18. My beef with hub worlds is that when you give me the breather in the middle of the action and make me do mundane tasks I loose interest in the game and set it down. That is why I can't finish so many large games nowadays is because the hub worlds make you do dumb things that ultimately are weaker than the main game or have no advancement to the main story.
     
  19. Ritz

    Ritz

    Subhedgehog Member
    Come to think of it, I don't think it'd be a stretch to say that hub worlds were the root cause of every evil that plagues modern gaming. They were the genesis of the "40+ hours" bullet point: Developers realized that level density was expensive, and their solution was to just make one big map that the player would have to cross multiple times to fulfill conditions that only required a text editor to develop, effectively doubling or tripling the length of the game. Up to a point, even saving the game necessitated visiting one specific point on the map, which could require up to a minute of map traversal. And those minutes add up. It's the basest implementation of a timesink. Hub worlds facilitate everything you could ever find in a game except gameplay. Stupid.
     
  20. Exactly! I don't mind it in metroidvania games as long as it is small and linear. It is when you have to constantly run back and forth on fetch quests that do nothing to the overall story other than "The game makers demand it" that I start to get a distaste in my mouth that is the equivalent of a nasty fart. Open worlds are fun though because in like Farcry you can fall off a mountain, into the water, then 2 seconds later get attacked by a crocodile, fish, shark, etc. Don't even need to do the campaign to get my moneys worth of games like that and GTA V.