don't click here

Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. PkR

    PkR

    Member
    191
    24
    18
    SADX Dreamcast Conversion, The Emeralds' Awakening
    I might be biased, but I had the rail stages in mind when I was writing that. Or like Final Egg vs Crazy Gadget, or Pyramid Cave vs Red Mountain. They're all linear, but I think the SA2 stages tend to branch out less in comparison.

    Nope.
    Classic Sonic's design inspired by his look in the classic games - check.
    Green Hill zone - check.
    A different gameplay style focused on platforming - check.
    But I agree that it doesn't play as a classic game. I'd say it's more for Generations Classic Sonic fans rather than the "classic" classic fans. And it does have Sonic 4 elements too, I think I heard remixed parts of Sonic 4 music in it, which is also not a very good thing.
     
  2. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,378
    466
    63
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    Chaos - check
    Shadow - check
    Bigger story emphasis - check

    Oh look, it's Adventure!
     
  3. More like they shoehorned in Classic Sonic. There's no real pandering there that I can see. The music is not electronic and danceable. The colour palette isn't used to the fullest. And I don't remember any annoying text-bubbles popping up every few seconds in a classic title. I'd also discount the connection of Green Hill with the notion of Classic, as that is simply a general Sonic theme nowadays.

    I'd say it is pretty far removed from Adventure 1 as well. Again there is no glint of electronica that we've heard yet. The presentation doesn't appear to be anime-esque such as in the first Adventure. Despite the CaC, there really is no other character than Sonic, since from what I've gathered the skill-tweaks granted are minimal to the point that it plays like Sonic. Obviously that means no emerald hunting. And no Chao Garden either. Though I wouldn't be surprised to see omochao...

    Oh, and is there a hub?

    The only era I really see Forces taking cues from is the infinitely-mentioned Colours/Generations/Lost World. That's not a bad thing though. Not the greatest thing, but still.
     
  4. PkR

    PkR

    Member
    191
    24
    18
    SADX Dreamcast Conversion, The Emeralds' Awakening
    Shadow isn't even in SA1, and he's in a whole lot of other games, so I don't see how he could be associated with "adventure vibes".
    As for Chaos, well ok. It's pandering to Lost World fans too (if there are any) because it has Zavok too.
    So you have Chaos on the "adventure vibes" side against a blatant ripoff of a Sonic 1 level, a character design inspired by Sonic's look in the classic games and a gameplay style that borrows very heavily from the classic games on the other side. Not to mention the boss remakes.
    That isn't a unique characteristic of Adventure games. How about Shadow the Hedgehog or Sonic Boom too, then?
     
  5. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,378
    466
    63
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    Green Hill Zone isn't even in Sonic 2, and it's in a whole lot of other games, so I don't see how that could be associated with "classic vibes".

    "A different gameplay style focused on platforming" isn't a unique characteristic of Classic games. How about Sonic Advance or Sonic 4 too, then?
     
  6. PkR

    PkR

    Member
    191
    24
    18
    SADX Dreamcast Conversion, The Emeralds' Awakening
    As an easter egg to pander to classic fans or in games that are actually trying to pander to classic fans, lol. I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. You're only confirming that Forces has more "classic" pandering than Adventure pandering, which it barely has at all.

    Which also happen to be games that pander to the classic fans. Oh well.
     
  7. Deef

    Deef

    Member
    733
    22
    18
    Not completely terrible. It has nice visuals. But still terrible.

    To reach that estimation I'd have to lower my idea of decent. 3 forced playstyles, all of them weak. We already know this. All the other fluff (GH, the music, etc) doesn't matter... it's simply the gameplay itself that is a massive grey void of uninspiration. One style is officially not enough to carry a game. Another style plays genuinely, noticeably worse than the classic gaming it's trying to imitate. The third style is not even focused on. There's a clear lack of care for making it actually intriguing to play. I don't mind if they try to make something good and mess it up, that would be a Mario Sunshine, and that's what decent would be. But no-one is trying.

    Like you said, things should be aiming at being the next Odyssey or BotW.

    Generations so does not live up to the hype. Like wow.
     
  8. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,378
    466
    63
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
    Shadow is only in other games to pander to Adventure fans.

    I don't know what you're saying, but I'm literally matching your points 1:1 here and somehow you think you're ahead.
     
  9. This is perhaps the big picture that I'd hope most would focus on rather than nitpicking.

    There are some people who love the Unleashed era games and think that style has longevity (I completely disagree about the longevity part, but its their opinion) so my point is that if you want more of that, you're likely to get it in good doses this time around. And though the Unleashed era games were not received on nearly the same level of praise as the classic games, they were generally received positively, so just outright saying "this is terrible" is probably not quite right to say even though I know what you're getting at.

    Again, my issues with Forces are really more of a deeper, systemic level critique aimed at SEGA and Sonic Team's approach to Modern Sonic, even though the game itself isn't the tragedy that '06 or Boom were for the franchise. At least since Generations I've been pretty convinced that Sonic needs a reboot for a stronger foundation for fundamental gameplay, AND just as important, to remove the negative stigma that is associated with Modern Sonic games in the last 15-20 years. Hopefully Sonic Team uses this game an excuse to "reset" things in the Sonic Universe and start over with one single, focused, best Sonic for the brand moving forward.....

    ......or so goes my dream.
     
  10. VectorCNC

    VectorCNC

    Member
    644
    84
    28
    CNC Sculpture/Artwork
    Valiant efforts everyone, but there really is no point reasoning with "The Bubble People". They see 3 play styles in 1 Sonic game and think, innovative! They see Classic Sonic thrown into another modern game, and say "this isn't nostalgia pandering because look how poorly it emulates the classics". They just don't get it. Period. 90% of people reading the conversation will agree with you, but not bother to write any response, and then inevitably a mod or someone will complain about the circular discussion, and you won't get any validation for your efforts or intelligence. So unless you are trying to raise your blood pressure, you may as well just stop wasting your time on these folks. For all I care at this point, they can keep playing the violin as the Titanic sinks.
     
  11. Shadow can't be used to pander to fans of Adventure, he's from 2/Heroes/Shadow/06 which are, as noted, very different from Adventure 1. So you could say with Shadows inclusion they are pandering to the SA2+ crowd, but absolutely not to the Adventure crowd. We do have Chaos from the original, but that appears to be it.
     
  12. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    19,314
    1,013
    93
    Long-term happiness
    >if

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Come on, lad. Let's not pretend this franchise hasn't had some terrible games. And I'm not even delving into spinoffs like Sonic Labyrinth or merely mediocre titles like Shadow the Hedgehog here.
     
  13. DigitalDuck

    DigitalDuck

    Arriving four years late. Member
    5,378
    466
    63
    Lincs, UK
    TurBoa, S1RL
     
  14. Yeah, but we're making an effort to distinguish Adventure, which has more in line with the Classics than the rest but ultimately is just a bridge between the Classsic and Modern, from SA2 and beyond. Again noting that Shadow and the linear story elements stem from SA2. I even quoted PkR to note that people do lump them together, and then to stress that they should not.
     
  15. Xiao Hayes

    Xiao Hayes

    Classic Eggman art Member
    I think most of the time the "adventure games" term refers just to the main 3D titles prior to the "boost games" and the "boom games", which may be an unfortunate way to say it because of nitpicking. To me, SA2 is quite similar to SA1 in terms of gameplay, because they have no team gimmicks, no weapon gimmicks on hedgehog playstyle, and much better results than games between Heroes and '06. The automation on those games was also less prominent and intrusive, albeit still buggy and infuriating. The only game I've liked since the times of the Dreamcast is Generations, where the boost playstyle fitted better what I can enjoy from a modern game, but boost itself, is something I hate, not only as a playstyle, but also as something totally opposite to classic gameplay. Dreamcast games aren't gems either, they're just nice spin-off games that eventually became the base for "random shit of the year" subsequent titles. Funny that, each time they decide to make some gameplay element a recurrent one, they choose a really bad one or ruin it if it's a good one, so, the only time they did something right, they proceed to ruin it again in the next game, and we get back to Colours, the title I hate the most from all I played (I haven't played '06, Boom and Lost World). Don't get me wrong, Forces could be fun and/or fix some things, but it had to be at least as good as Generations was to be appealing to me as a whole, and Gens is still just an OK game.
     
  16. Beltway

    Beltway

    The most grateful Sonic fan of all time this week Member
    1,665
    182
    43
    Sega of Darkest Peru
    Artwork and classes
    On the talk about Adventure 1/2 level design; I'd say the difference between Adventure 1 (Sonic/Tails) and Adventure 2's levels (Sonic/Shadow) was not so much their linearity than it was the overall structure of those levels. Adventure 2 (and honestly IMO, most of the later 3D Sonic games TBH) seem to operate under designing the majority of their levels on one/two basic templates--very narrow routes/playspace, bottomless pits galore, and maybe a handful of rail-grinding moments thrown in. It's like the underlying design of the levels are all based on one level, but are just rearranged platforms/rails, while also having a few token gimmicks and new a coat of paint (level theme) tossed over it so it looks like a different level. Though maybe they wouldn't feel like this so much if 3D levels weren't also heavily reliant on automation and hardly had any non-surface level/zone gimmicks.

    That's not to say Adventure 1 was guilty of this too, but those levels I feel provided far more diverse and interesting material within their levels in comparison. Unlike later 3D Sonic games, I can actually make out a decent amount of contrast between levels and some variety in how those levels are designed.

    This argument only works if we're going to be approaching this argument that people actually think Forces looks like an improvement over Generations, or people wanted literally another Generations setup (modern Sonic/classic Sonic teamup, returning levels from past games, etc.) for a new Sonic game.

    There seem to be a lot of people (mostly outside this forum) that are convinced Forces will be a decent game (if not a good game), if only because it has the Boost gameplay returning. In light of everything else we've known and seen about this game and this developer so far, I don't think the Boost gameplay alone will be enough to save Forces, and I do honestly think those people who are mistaken.

    Though as UpCLeftCDownC and Deef noted, aiming for "good enough" (a popular substitute term for "decent") isn't exactly a high bar to begin with. If you want Sonic games to be truly outstanding again, you'll have to demand for more than "good enough". Doubly so for Sega, as "good enough" Sonic games doesn't cut it anymore for people outside the fanbase.
     
  17. Antheraea

    Antheraea

    Bug Hunter Member
    I concur with the level design differences for SA1 and SA2. While all of them are technically linear save for the hunting and (shudder) fishing levels, SA1's levels are rarely as claustrophobic or narrow as SA2's. Even Windy Valley Act 3 can be blown wide open while playing as Tails (and also making it hilariously easy to beat), while I can't think of any major bypasses in SA2 outside of like...a rocket in Sky Rail.

    Someone brought up Final Egg vs Crazy Gadget. The second act of Final Egg is actually a vertical path - it's just that Sonic is spiralling down it, so it's not particularly obvious unless you've played the level enough to realize "oh hey, that switch I'll be hitting two minutes in the future is actually at the bottom of this giant room I'm crossing", whereas Crazy Gadget is pretty much entirely corridors save for the last portion (which was more vexing than interesting, primarily because the way the game handled the gravity changes was.....questionable).

    But also, not just this, but physical width - yes, there is one path to take, but there's also plenty of room to run around, fight enemies, get rings. Emerald Coast likely starts with such an area to express that feeling of largeness, even if in the long run, it isn't. Even Final Egg has it, and Speed Highway has several sections like that. I can't really think of any Sonic/Shadow sections in SA2 that are like that outside of useless busywork like finding stuff to drag to other spots and open up the path (Pyramid Cave) or switches to hit to do the same (White Jungle).

    SA2's levels are just glorified corridors with the exception of one or two set pieces for literally everyone except for the hunter characters, and the rail sections take this to a logical extreme too.

    And it'd be one thing if the levels had variety but they don't. Sonic's Lost World has a ton of variety even while carrying the same aesthetic throughout - boulder chase, the water snake, circular rotating hallways interspersed with sections of platforming... Not a single level in SA2 has that much going for it in terms of throwing new stuff at the player.
     
  18. RikohZX

    RikohZX

    Member
    1,018
    282
    63
    From my subjective view point, the corridors of Adventure 2 aren't even all that refined. Say what some will in their claims that Modern Sonic's gameplay has become too automated, Adventure 2 wasn't really much better and just didn't direct you down that path at 200 miles per hour by focusing more on platforming with a bit of speed, rather than speed with a bit of platforming. Plus the rampant glitchiness and weird physics back then don't help. If there's non-linearity and variety to look at for the 3D era, it's typically with games like Adventure 1 and, ironically, certain levels for Sonic '06, but then '06 wears the worst of both overly-scripted linearity that kills you for looking at it funny and non-linearity that makes you wonder what the fuck you're supposed to be doing and where you're going.

    I don't have a problem with Boost formula at all, with good stage design I can get down with it no problem, and besides Planet Wisp most of Generations was great level design. Forces seemingly going back to bite-sized stages ala Colors without even strictly a speedrun focus in that regard makes me raise an eyebrow, and what we've seen of Classic Sonic's stage design makes me want to learn how to mod, fix Classic Sonic's physics, and hope to crack level design open to get rid of all those goddamned hidden springs and speed boosters.
     
  19. Amnimator

    Amnimator

    Member
    224
    0
    16
    While SA1's level design had its fair share of issues, I think it handled alternate paths being an alternative way to maneuver parts of the level better than the boost games. There was a lot more leg room performing the shortcut, and for the most part it felt natural. In most shortcuts in the boost games (as well as Adventure 2), it feels really cramped and mechanical. There's some I really like though, like in Generations Seaside Hill - jumping off stage then boosting along the water to skip a portion. What I don't like to see is, "jump at the right time in this high speed corridor", which most of Generation's alternate paths devolve to. Sonic Adventure's level design wasn't the greatest, but I feel it did better than Adventure 2 and there's a bit to learn from what it does better.

    I keep on saying, "boost formula didn't meet it's full potential", but I'd like to see a re-imagining of Sonic Rush gameplay in 3D. There's a lot of verticality to work with in the level design. Sonic and Blaze's trick-jump would also give more opportunities in maneuvering the level, while redoing how boost Sonic controls in 3D.
     
  20. Blue Blood

    Blue Blood

    Member
    5,995
    861
    93
    http://segabits.com/blog/2017/07/31/rumor-sonic-forces-day-one-edition-to-include-costumes-from-jet-set-radio-nights-monkey-ball-and-more/

    Day One Edition of game leaked. It'll include clothing items based of various SEGA properties. Also, obligatory comment about how much I don't like Forces.