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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    Just shooting the air here, but if Ian Flynn is writing and this seems to be an apocalyptic scale attack by an Eggman... Perhaps this is a lead up to a Crisis on InfiniteEarths/ Nu252 Genesis Wave style reboot?

    The timeline in the games is royally buggered and Ian Flynn (or the writer whoever that may be) would be well in his rights to reboot the franchise into something more coherent, and he has the franchise knowledge and the experience for it to work out.

    Someone mentioned it before, but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if we got a brand new Sonic by the end of this through the fusion of the best visual and gameplay aspects of Classic and Modern.

    And thus ends my trial count, it was fun and I hope I can stick around. :)
     
  2. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    That would be a waste of time. I don't think anyone seriously cares about Sonic's continuity at this point.
     
  3. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    I do, and I'm someone, not to mention a few people here have stated that they care about the story in Sonic games which a coherent timeline could go a long way in improving for the long term. So no, I don't think it would be a waste of time at all.

    Quality is made up of various parts of a product. While story isn't as important as gameplay, if there's going to be dialogue and a motivation behind why I'm playing then I'd like it to be a good reason grounded in plot.
     
  4. TimmiT

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    I seriously doubt that even Sonic Team cares about continuity. Whatever "canon" there is is rebooted every few games anyway.

    Also lol a coherent timeline isn't going to improve bad writing in any meaningful way.
     
  5. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    Very true, nothing can save bad writing from being bad writing, but Ian Flynn isn't a bad writer (in my opinion at least).

    This wasn't always the case and, for me at least, hopefully won't be the case going forward. We have four branches of Sonic now.

    Sonic Boom -> More relaxed and comedic canon
    Modern Sonic -> Current Sonic with continuity all over the place
    Classic Sonic -> Genesis era Sonic with a simple yet clear continuity
    Archie Sonic -> Recently rebooted derivative continuity attempting to structure the game's continuity within

    Is there any word on the Flyn side of things whether he was just having a lark or if he was serious with his hints?
     
  6. I think games are hyped way too early these days, along with music & movies.

    I just lose a bit of interest by the time most things are released.

    A few months is cool but a whole year or more is a bit extreme.
     
  7. Josh

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    You're kind of getting dismissed on this, and unfairly so. I think inconsistency has been a major problem across so many elements of this franchise, and a game that aims to fix that and decide on SOME kind of coherent direction going forward would really be exciting, even though it would surely piss off a lot of the die-hard fans who are dedicated only to one "era".
     
  8. Atendega

    Atendega

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    I am unbelievably sick of the fad of rebooting everything. Generations pretty clearly showed that all the games are part of the same timeline. The current canon is fine. Messy, but perfectly serviceable.

    Totally on board for Ian Flynn, though. The rebooted comics have portrayed all the characters pretty perfectly, IMO.
     
  9. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    Of all the problems Sonic stories in games have, continuity is one of the least important ones. A reboot isn't necessary to make every character who's not Eggman likeable, to make it feel like stuff is actually happening in the story, to make the jokes funny etc.

    And it's not like a reboot would be necessary for them to start a continuous story in games if they wanted to. There's no big backstory that people would need to know before starting a Sonic game. And that's the advantage the lack of canon and continuity gives: it makes it easy for newcomers to get into the game's world and story. Really a reboot would be pointless unless they'd want to completely change the characters and world.
     
  10. Covarr

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    Frankly I've always liked the lack of serious continuity. I never finished Lost World or Secret Rings, never even played Unleashed (unless you count the Generations mod), and I really appreciate that I don't need to back and complete them to understand later games.

    That said... when the series did attempt taking continuity seriously, we got idiotic retcons, particularly with regards to Shadow and his backstory. I mean, maybe Ian Flynn can do it better, but is it really necessary? Even without dumbass retcons, I don't feel the pros would outweigh the cons.
     
  11. Dark Sonic

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    Flynn can at least make Shadow's back story somewhat enjoyable. Like I love what he's doing with Sonic Universe lately (Basically Shadow the Hedgehog 2 & Knuckles). If that was the story of a spinoff game I'd be quite happy with that. Regardless though, gameplay > story when it comes to Sonic. It's best to have a story that doesn't get too much in the way of things, kind of like how the classics did it.

    I appreciate what Generations did in terms of story though. It just dumped everything in one setting and was like "Here is series canon, this is Classic Sonic he does this, this is Modern Sonic he does this. We almost have our shit together after 20 years." Then Lost world came around and ruined that but hey what can ya do.
     
  12. Covarr

    Covarr

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    Not hire Ken Pontac and Warren Graff.
     
  13. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    This.

    Quality is the real problem. While I love a rich beautiful lore filled world that could flow from game to game, good quality writing would be sufficient and as has been stated: gameplay will always trump story.

    A competent writer who isn't just writing "lol nosehair derp for the lulz" will (or should at least) want to make a lasting impression as well as lay out pathways for continuity should they be granted the opportunity to write the next instalment. I see that as human nature.

    @TimmiT: Continuity doesn't necessarily mean that a game can't stand on its' own. Continuity would simply allow for cohesive story telling with a lore filled world which would allow the writer to draw upon a vast amount of pre-existing intellectual assets to help balance out new stories with as well as give more subtle nostalgia nudges.
     
  14. Chimera

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    Continuity would be nice. It'd prove they at least give a shit.


    That's really the issue here honestly. SEGA just doesn't fucking care about how they present their games. Iizuka's replies to continuity errors are evidence of that alone--all he'd need to say is that every game is in its own contained world unless specified otherwise. That apparently sounds like a bad business decision though, so in good SEGA fashion they instead make a worse one.

    "Why is Blaze in 06's future if she's from another dimension...? Doesn't anyone recognize her?"
    --"Everyone, like, got amnesia."

    "If half the moon blew up in SA2, why does it never look like that for the other Sonic games?"
    --"Whenever you're looking at the moon, you're looking at the side that isn't destroyed."

    It's like they just fucking FORGOT about their own established plot elements and haphazardly on-the-spot decided to connect them through flimsy justification. They do this, because they know their plots are shit. Actually, it's either that or they just don't give a fuck about the plots. SEGA, or just Iizuka (who's still the games' director so that's just as bad) just knows their audience wants a reason to be playing their game--or at least that's what they tell themselves will sell--so making sure a plot EXISTS is important, not so much what that plot IS or if it MEANS anything. Now derving meaning from an action cartoon game does sound incredibly silly and unnecessary... but while no game story NEEDS to have any actual depth, weight, or reason to care about it even at the basest sense of "the developers care about you having fun," it'd be a hell of a lot BETTER for the series to have that.

    This series is a fucking joke because nothing about it is worth anyone's psychological investment past acknowledging it's a meme. It's only like this because of the inconsistencies, and fucking BIZZARE nature of canon, along with utter, obvious contempt for any form of plot or writing that doesn't make this series look like a fucking bargain bin Sh?nen.


    This series doesn't need tropes. It doesn't need the sense of adventure. It doesn't need witty dialogue, or dramatic moments, or any fucking EDGE. This series just needs some HEART to it. Some goddamn actual care for what the fuck this company's selling to people for them to give a shit about it. I enjoy the Boom show as much as anyone but it can feel pretty soulless when it isn't genuinely funny, which for me isn't most of the time sadly. Boom lacks any semblance of confidence in itself because it recognizes the brand it's under is just an industry joke. If this series just fucking TRIED, put some confidence in its decisions and actually gave a damn about how they wanted this series to look, we'd have a much different series I can guarantee you that.



    As it is, we have a series run by people who don't know what they're doing and are too scared and confused of public opinion to understand what it is they're even doing wrong, creating not because it believes in itself, from the looks of it, but because it wants to stay afloat. The closest we have to a game with heart to it is Mania right now because that wasn't a comissioned rebranding project tasked with doing the impossible. It's the game Tax, Stealth and crew WANTED TO MAKE.

    if Sonic Team / SEGA propper ever want to see their core series held at the same regard as how people freaked out over Mania, they have to realize it's not JUST because of "clessik sennik." It's because the devs give a fuck. If they want to stay relevant for the next decade, they need to start giving a fuck themselves. Else, well if you don't care about your own product, why the fuck should any of us?
     
  15. Okamikurainya

    Okamikurainya

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    I think you hit the nail on the head here, great post.

    The management is a real problem... Let's say Ian Flynn is writing this, he still has to take orders from above. So while he may craft a really great narrative, Iizuka or someone else higher up could come down and be like "Hey, Flynn. It looks like Americans like Ponies these days, let's make Sonic turn into a Pony for the finale, the Americans will love that. :specialed: "
    Now Flynn has to incorporate that into his work. It seems to me this is also quite evident in Sonic Mania with Taxman and Stealth remaking classic levels.

    We need someone who has a deep appreciation for as well as knowledge of the franchise at the top.
     
  16. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    this discussion got really angry really fast
     
  17. VectorCNC

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    Not angry, Fair and Balanced.
     
  18. Chimera

    Chimera

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    sorry im just a saltmine lately :specialed:

    You sound like someone trying to justify Project M Game and Watch :v:

    I wanna see where this game's gonna be going but the series' track record doesnt have me holding my breath. Hell even if this game turns out good there's no teling they'll keep that momentum. 2011 was the year we got a really good game int he series and was ALSO the year that spawned the Sanic memes that havent left. Reacent events havent given us reason to get rid of them.

    And thats just a wee bit annoying tbh.
     
  19. Josh

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    When I defended the point, I wasn't talking so much about focusing on the story aspects, more that it'd be nice if we could whittle ourselves down to just one Sonic, again. One Sonic who could be representative of ONE gameplay style for the series going forward and work on iterating that, whether that's Adventure-style, Boost-style, an evolution of Lost World's mechanics, or something different. Sonic Team needs to stop reinventing the gameplay and changing the tone of Sonic every few years. It's why we're to the point where we even HAVE three different Sonics, to appeal to those fractured fanbases as much as possible. And while I think it's probably too late to do much about that, I'd still be hyped if a game actually SHOWED us how all these disparate elements are going to be reinvented.

    That being said, I'd be just as happy with a Taxman/Stealth 2D game every other year, and a quality modern Sonic-starring 3D game every three or four years. The important thing, like I said, is to iterate on what works instead of constantly spitballing new, badly-implemented ideas.
     
  20. I'd be happy with minimal story.

    Let the environments tell the story, rather than the cut scenes.