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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. Beltway

    Beltway

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    How are the speed boosters not intrusive? Boosters placed before the tunnel are specifically positioned to push you into the tunnel, you have to go out of your way to enter the tunnel without touching them. Whereas the boosters placed directly within the tunnel, cannot be avoided whatsoever.

    Rolling is a gameplay mechanic that the player can activate at almost anytime; speed boosters are a recurring level object that the player (rarely) has influence on in terms of when and where they appear in a level. That in itself is already a big difference.

    Moreover, describing levels that encourage the player to go fast don't actually make the player go fast itself; they just support the notion of going fast. I'd say this is pretty different to how later levels are designed (or in the case of Forces, the Classic Sonic GHZ level), which --through their heavy use of boosters-- are constantly pushing the player forward.

    And having sections of automation/forced speed in a game (and/or spots of it in a levels)...is still relatively different from having automation/forced speed present in the entirety of the game (or in other words, frequently used in nearly every level), which has been the crux of my complaint regarding this level and the newer titles.

    The result is a game that occasionally recommends the player going fast with a core ability and has a handful of moments of forced speed being compared to a game that makes the player go fast with a stage gimmick that are present throughout the game. I'm not seeing how this disproves my argument on that two styles of Sonic games' approach to automation are very different.

    The closest example of heavy automation from the classic series off the top of my head that is comparable to those from the later Sonic games are the long sequences of tunnels of Carnival Night Zone Act 2--and they're not onlyrestricted to the opening and ending segments of the act; they're practically unique (in appearance and in their use) compared to the rest of the game.
     
  2. Sean Evans

    Sean Evans

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    You are encouraged to roll in order to pick up speed, but it is never required of you. In fact the games often punish over reliance on the spindash and rolling, meaning that a good balance between the two is key. The spots in the level where Sonic moves quickly and it seems like the level does everything for you doesn't strip you of control. You can stop and slow down at any time. More importantly, the point of it all is that proper usage of the game's mechanics allow experienced players to find clever ways to bypass or quickly move through the slower segments. Meanwhile in the boost titles, boosting is almost always necessary, with the game very rarely punishing you for overuse of it. The game strips control away so that it can have "cinematic" camera angles and action sequences every 10 or 12 seconds. And the only way to bypass the less speedy areas is to react to obscured paths or obstacles in time.

    The difference is that automation is used as an aid in the Classics (most of the time). Automation is a crutch in the boost games to fill in the gaps where the player or the designer isn't capable of properly handling a certain scenario. Sonic can't get through the loop without flinging outside of it, and the camera angle looks a bit wonky while going through. Rather than figuring out new, more clever ways of implementing physics terrain that won't intrude on the game's limitations, they simply create the illusion of these elements having purpose. The problem with that tunnel segment in particular is that it over-eggs the pudding. It's like making a car explode, then blowing up the exploded remains of the car. It's not justified or even cinematic automation at that point, it's just tacky.
     
  3. You are not explicitly required to boost in most circumstances and bad usage of the boost can easily cause you to launch yourself into a bottomless pit. The boost isn't really different. In any case, even if you weren't required to roll, why wouldn't you? It makes playing the game, gaining speed, and enjoying it much easier than if you weren't. The same thing goes for using the boost. You have not only the boost, but sliding and the stomp as well. You can just as easily traverse through many stages with multiple spin dashes with practice.

    The so-called cinematic parts of the stages are harmless, typically don't take much time, and the majority of the time make traversing through the stages more exciting. You speak as if they could easily "fix" the perceived automation and call them too lazy to do it when it's apparent that the developers put more thought into these things than a typical person would.


    And when they do appear in the level, how much of an effect do they actually make for people to complain about them merely existing? These aspects of the 3D games that you point out are hardly significant issues, if they were actually issues in the first place, and is just a matter of personal preference.
    Why would you actually want to avoid the speed boosters in that situation? Is it practical to do so? If not, then that isn't an issue and it isn't an intrusion by any means.
     
  4. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    Intrusive would be if speed boosters obstructed my ability to get places, do things or whatever...usually they don't. It's not intrusive if I'd just be holding right anyway. It's unnecessary, sure, but the complaint that Sonic is designed inefficiently isn't really this game's fault specifically.
     
  5. Twilightzoney

    Twilightzoney

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    I'm hoping the drift is in this game. Since 3D segments are gonna just be straight paths like we've seen in this one level so far. And isn't tied to specific segments for drifting like Colors.
     
  6. Beltway

    Beltway

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    You are clearly avoiding a very clear point here. I doubt anyone else would pretend to have trouble understanding this.

    I'm not making it personal preference. I gave logical explanations to why I called it bad design that had no relations to personal taste, I said that if this style of play appeared in different games--Mario, Donkey Kong, Crash, whathaveyou--it would look like bad design there too. Other people besides myself have been complaining about their use in Forces too (and before that, with preceding Sonic games), so I don't know why you're saying my complaints are an isolated case.

    You're also putting words in my mouth by saying that I'm calling the developer lazy. Criticizing their game design choices and philosophy isn't the same thing as insulting the developer, and trying to equate the two as the same thing is something of a cheap attack. You could try giving a credible reason as to why the booster placement is good game design instead of trying to mind-reading the author arguing otherwise.

    Or just admit that you personally don't see automation as a big deal. It's not that hard to say "yeah, I can see why the dash panels are a problem to you, but I'm still looking forward to the game."

    I'm describing them as intrusive on the argument that the game's level design --though the level's high usage and placement of these boosters-- rarely allows the player to build speed on their own merits; rather than on the basis of boosters being level obstacles the player has to stop and deal with.
     
  7. Regarding the second paragraph, I thought that I quoted Sean Evans's comment or wrote that in the correct area, since he was the one that insinuated that the developers didn't try to put any effect toward that and that Sonic Team was "lazy". That wasn't directed toward you, so I need to edit the comment; sorry about that. To expand on that, though, it's very easy to say that implementing an idea in a game is so simple. There are several aspects of making a game that need to be taken into account that are generally disregarded by those who make those claims. Even if the ideal version in your head seems to be the best, that doesn't mean that it can necessarily work in practice the way that it is or that implementing it would be simple.

    In response to the first paragraph, I don't see the point in comparing different series whose focus on platforming is very different from Sonic's. That occurs far too often. In response to the last, it's also just as easy to complain about a game, too.

    You argued that in the context of a section that was already automated. I understood what point you were trying to make, but it doesn't make sense to call that usage of speed boosters a hindrance even in the sense that you use the word.

    In regard to automation, it's completely strange to excuse the automation in the classic series of games as being merely an aid. Those instances in both the old games and the new ones are similar. There are cases in which rolling is all that you need to do and you don't need to press anything else for the duration of the section. That is not unique from what people criticize in the boost games.
     
  8. RikohZX

    RikohZX

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    clearly we just mod a lot of the more unnecessary dash panels and hidden springs out :v:
     
  9. synchronizer

    synchronizer

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    A "replace dash panels with dash panels facing the wrong way" mod.
     
  10. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    But then, the game already gives you the boost, doesn't it? That's like instant speed in and of itself.
     
  11. Beltway

    Beltway

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    I wasn't comparing their styles of platforming. I was saying the use of boosters would be problematic in any other platformer out there, it's not tied to Sonic game design or based on preference.

    Shaddy's response was referring more towards the general use of boosters, as opposed to the specific booster/tunnel combination I've been talking about (though if he was, he's entirely free to correct me if I'm wrong). I do think my specific response to him was in line with that, I didn't refer to the booster/tunnel combination in that specific part of my post addressing him.

    I didn't excuse it, I outright pointed to Carnival Night Act 2 being the most automated level in the classic game. Don't even know where you're getting the automation = aid bit from because I haven't said anything of the sort. Unless you're referring to bit about the levels in the older games encouraging speed....which was something you brought up. Not me.

    Not really sure you're reading my posts correctly.

    Rolling to gain speed isn't the same result as getting a booster to gain speed. Levels in newer games have a much larger use of automation compared to the older titles. Both of these statements are pretty easy to understand and easy to demonstrate. Rolling down a small slope without a dash panel would give less speed than rolling down the same slope with a dash panel on it, for example. Chemical Plant Act 1 has less dash panels and forced speed sequences compared to Windy Hill Act 1.

    Saying these two things are the same only works if you're viewing it solely from a surface standpoint. It would be like saying Sonic games and Donkey Kong games are the same because both characters have a rolling mechanic.
     
  12. Mr Lange

    Mr Lange

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    look guys they're pretty much the same thing okay I would just be holding right the whole time anyway so it doesn't matter the modern games are not worse they're just DIFFERENT there's nothing wrong with trying something DIFFERENT okay they're not TRYING to be like the classic games even though they haphazardly copy elements and mechanics of the classics but severely water them down and have much jankier controls and wonky movement and insert filler and automations everywhere THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT OKAY
     
  13. Faseeh

    Faseeh

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    Someone at SSMB confirmed that it may not be returning :/ But there is the possibility of it being context sensitive only.

    https://board.sonicstadium.org/topic/22243-sonic-forces-e3-impressions/?do=findComment&comment=1124761
     
  14. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    If you don't like it it's cool. But "Modern Sonic isn't trying to be like the classics" is a pretty valid defense. Can things stand to be better? Sure. But I don't think dash rings are inherently problematic the same way you do. In the context of Modern gameplay, they're alright, because conservation of momentum isn't the focus. Dash rings are probably overused, true, and are sometimes used as a crutch because the level designer couldn't think of/didn't have time to think of anything more interesting after launching the player through the air. But dash rings, on their own, are fine.

    Also boosters serve to set the player's direction as well as their speed. Did somebody mention that? Cause there are too many walls of text for me to sift through. I feel like the best way to use them is to keep the player moving when they fail to take a turn well and would've just slammed into the wall.

    Also boosters make a cool sound. They probably put in at least a third of them just so they make a swoosh sound.
     
  15. Shaddy the guy

    Shaddy the guy

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    I think ultimately the comparison is a bit flawed since both sequences are complete mindless spectacle filler, rather than being an example of when the game removes the player's control from something that actually requires brainpower.
     
  16. Aerosol

    Aerosol

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    It's the illusion of control. In the top example, the player flies over the gap because they held right long enough to get enough speed. In the bottom example, they held right long enough to hit the first trigger, and the game did the rest.

    If you need the illusion of control to help you feel better, than the bottom example is worse than Satan buttfucking your father on the Thanksgiving dinner table.
     
  17. Mastered Realm

    Mastered Realm

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    Ok, Sonic Forces still looks terrible on the Switch for now. [VIDEO]

    The baked lighting wasn't even made for the spikes yet, it seems. So yeah, I think they'll have to delay that version a bit to finish porting.
     
  18. Stimil Rc.

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    With how situational the drift and quick step are, I shouldn't be all that bothered by them being limited to certain sections, but it does most likely mean that it won't replenish boost energy anymore. That actually saddens me, especially with the only of getting boost being from White Wisps and enemies.

    Rather than rings or White Wisps, I'd love to see a 3D boost centric game expand on the trick system of the Rush games and reward players boost for doing things like finding opportunities to maintain air time to perform stunts or creative places to drift or mastering a stage specific gimmick. It always bothered me how Sonic Team never tried to emulate the Rush games in anything but the boost, not even for the 2D sections, and that Dimps dropped the trick system for Colors DS and Generations 3DS.

    Man, I should play Rush Adventure again.
     
  19. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    If this ends up being true, that's one less benefit of the doubt I can give this game. If it's not even relying on how well Generations utilized the full control scheme, we can pretty much rule out good level design like Modern Seaside Hill or Jungle Joyride.

    What a waste of a long development cycle. Sonic Team really doesn't seem to have anyone at the decision-making level calling shots that endorses putting effort and thought into creating refined products.

    I am so disappointed in the laziness that is exuding from this game.

    Mania is the only thing that's going to get Sonic any respectability in the greater gaming community for a long time to come.
     
  20. Amnimator

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    Boost and quick stepping are a big deal. They helped change things up from how monotonous some of the game could get. Quick step often challenged your reflexes and drifting allowed for large expanses of land that really focus on getting the player on track. They both helped open the door for more alternate paths. Apotos let you boost and quickstep or drift to branch off into a separate path giving you a height advantage. It's hard enough to design alternate paths with boost gameplay.

    As far as automation goes, I don't think it's inherently the issue, more that the games have gotten so linear level design wise that it's made that much worse. You don't need to mandate the player's momentum to get them across the level. I think they took automation too far, it doesn't actually help the gameplay at a point.