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Sonic Forces Thread

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by Blue Blood, Jul 23, 2016.

  1. DefinitiveDubs

    DefinitiveDubs

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    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic. :v:

    I do agree that the Classic gameplay could be improved. In fact I'm willing to bet the ridiculous spindash being nerfed is going to be one of them that we'll see. I don't think Classic's gameplay being a little similar to Modern is really that big of a deal, though. If the levels had been as large and varied as 3&K and had dead-accurate physics, it would outshine Modern by far. And I don't mean in my opinion, I mean literally Classic would have more substance and quality by default. I know some people welcome that, but that's the last thing a game designer wants. 3&K had its own share of scripted sequences, so they're not inherently bad. They're only bad when they can be broken and glitched through so easily, like the ramp in Green Hill. That also just takes control away for no real reason, and I actually struggle to think of any other that's anywhere near as bad off the top of my head. But I have no problem with Classic Sonic having a few scripted sequences and setpieces. Sonic is nothing if not a spectacle.

    But I'm part of the generation who grew up with cutscenes, so what do I know? :specialed:

    I'm no psychologist, but I don't think this is so much learning to distrust Sonic Team as it is wanting to be right all along in thinking it will suck, rather than hoping for the best and being let down. It's a coward's way out, and it makes me sad.
     
  2. Sid Starkiller

    Sid Starkiller

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    I'd argue that it's more about not wanting to get our hopes up, and ultimately be disappointed. For example, I only played Ocarina of Time after it came out on VC. The constant praise it gets on the internet got my expectations too high, and it utterly ruined the game for me. I don't have enough information to truly form an opinion on Project 2017, but I'm not going to dive in with blind faith and incredible amounts of hype. I WILL be disappointed if I do, even if the game is good.
     
  3. SuperSonicRider

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    Just some stray thoughts that I have that are somewhat relevant to other things that have been said:

    For the most part, I didn't have any problem with the 2D sections in Unleashed and Generations. They felt like they complemented the flow of those levels well. I didn't like them as much in Colors/Lost World because they were super "blocky" IMO, and often they didn't transition smoothly at all. So really it just depends on how they handle these parts of the game. If this game does have noticable 2D for Modern Sonic, I think(/hope!) they will steer more in the Unleashed/Generations direction.

    While the trailer is definitely more of a "serious" reveal than the likes of Colors, Generations, and Lost World, I simply cannot see the game being over-the-top edgy. That's one mistake that they didn't make again after Shadow the Hedgehog (I'd argue '06's story/writing was more dumb than anything, and IIRC '06's very first reveal certainly wasn't on the same level as Shadow's).

    I don't think anyone's actually linked the Tweet re:Ian Flynn "dropping hints" about writing the game (if someone has, then...here it is again). So there that is. While I generally have a good feeling about this game and I will concede that it is very weird that he, seemingly unprompted, said something about the game, I'm just going to stay on the "this probably isn't actually happening" side. Wouldn't mind being wrong about this though, haha

    Classic Sonic showing up was a little "whoa" to me even outside of the context of Mania because it seemed like with Modern Sonic's latest appearances (Lost World, Smash 4, Runners), they were trying to coalesce the designs. Because of his presence and the destroyed city though, I definitely get a "bad future" vibe from the possible story because otherwise it wouldn't make any sense for Classic Sonic to be here.

    This isn't the biggest deal to me, but it would be cool if Modern Sonic got some sort of useful rolling attack outside of jump/HA. They use the spin SFX in the trailer, but that could just be for show.

    I think that's all I have to say for now. I have faith that the game will be good, and I'm looking forward to seeing gameplay.
     
  4. TimmiT

    TimmiT

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    No need to play armchair psychologist to find a reason why people might be skeptical of if a new game by a studio that has the most hit or miss reputation in the game industry will be good. They don't want to be right and have the game suck, they're just explaining why they're (rightfully) skeptical about certain parts of the game not being handled well. And even then that doesn't mean they think the game will suck, if anything the people you're talking about generally say they think this will be a good game.

    The thing is, with DKCR and Rayman Origins the developers didn't make it like the original game not because they couldn't, they just made the game they wanted to make. With classic Sonic in Generations, it feels like they couldn't get the physics from the original games right so they built the levels around that limitation. The movement also feels like an attempt at trying to make Sonic move like in the classic games. Sonic's movement in the original games is affected by the physics, they try to replicate this with classic Sonic in Generations by just making movement feel sluggish.

    This is especially telling by playing Sonic 2 and then playing classic Sonic in Generations afterwards. The controls of the latter feels like a failed recreation of the former. I think that if Sonic Team could have gotten classic Sonic's physics and movement in Generations right, they would have. So I think it's fair to judge Generations' controls in comparison to the original games.

    Also because apparently if I'm only criticizing something in a game it means that I think the game is bad so here is the clarification that I think classic Sonic in Generations is decent: classic Sonic in Generations is still decent I think it just fails at what it tries to accomplish.
     
  5. It seems that ever since Unleashed, with the introduction of the Boost style stages, the limitation of that style has become more and more glaring. Much of those type of stages are veritable hallways when in the 3d perspective, and they have to be padded out with other sectioned off gameplay, due to issues such as this.

    http://gonintendo.com/stories/73154-why-can-t-we-get-a-sonic-game-with-nothing-but-running-because


    Ergo, that's where Werehog or Classic Sonic come in to put an arm around "Modern" levels(Fracturing the core gameplay and subsequently, overall impressions toward the game.), because that style of level design can't actually support itself, apparently.
    Even within the same "Modern" style level, that design is fighting with itself by having to switch from 3d perspective running, to 2d sidescrolling, because filling out a level with that boost style in 3d, is just too much trouble for too brief a payoff. The games could better benefit from a more classic approach since the classic games didn't follow the Sonic Rush or boost model that "Modern" levels do, the speed was more practical and Sonic at full running speed, didn't actually run any faster than Mario. Classic style level design could also lend itself to 3d level design as well.

    ~ Hirokazu Yasuhara.


    As for Classic Sonic in Generations, although not bad, I felt it was lacking a bit of the classic soul, mechanics/behavior wise. The skateboarding and pinball style physics references, the complimentary level design for said reactions, and the inventive platforming in much of the original games, are subconsciously influencing aspects of Sonic that provided the spark, made it so well loved, and distinguished it from say, "Socket" for the Sega Genesis(Which is what Classic Sonic was feeling a bit close to at times.). Even some of the smallest touches from the Classic games can make a big difference in impression.

    Generations was decent in that it didn't manage to be terrible, I believe that the likes of 06 seems to have played a part in lowering many expectations though.
    I hope that this New 2017 game is more than what Sonic Generations was.
     
  6. JcFerggy

    JcFerggy

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    I think you are misinterpreting the situation here. So far we have a one minute cinematic trailer that doesn't really explain much other than giant mechs are bad and Classic Sonic is returning. I'm sure most people here are excited for the game and are eager to see more, but if everyone here was to post "Looks cool, I'm excited to see more!" it would be more of a circlejerk. So with not much to comment on, people shift the discussion to what they didn't like about the previous games, and possible improvements to the new game. Compare this thread to the Mania thread where we got to see some actual gameplay in the trailer. Sure a lot of the positive discussion is centered around the allstar dev team, but there are also a bunch of posts commenting on the snipets of gameplay, easter eggs, and other off screen recordings. Basically they have more to talk about then we do here.

    Maybe once we get more information about the game things will appear more positive, but as for now all we can do is talk about what we hope the game will be.
     
  7. Blue Blood

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    So I just played through the entirety of Generations. As much fun as Modern Sonic was, Classic Sonic is really my favourite part of the game. Josh's comparison to Donkey Kong Country Returns was an apt one - it's not exactly like the original games, but it channels them in many ways to create a really good final product with it's unique set of strengths and some nasty flaws too. I'll be happy to see more of that type of gameplay. It's important that Sonic Team really fix up those issues though, because they do stop the game being as fun as it could and should be. I'm gonna be really annoying and lazy here and make a list...
    • Scripted events. The classics may have had them, but in Generations everything is scripted. Every single spring and booster takes all control away from the player, and so do a lot of level gimmicks. The worst offenders are all the ramps/slopes/loops that are 100% scripted though, shitting over the purpose of Sonic's physics in the first place. It's a problem for Modern Sonic too, and really needs addressing. Unless Sonic hits a wall of grabs on to something, no object should bring him to an instant stop and how me moves when hitting an object or slope should be relative to his speed.
    • Classic's jump is really heavy, and kind of floaty. He never quite goes high enough.
    • Rolling is underpowered and the spindash is overpowered. This isn't an issue because it's unlike the Classics, it's an issue because it's pretty broken and unfun.
    • Enemies spend so long telegraphing their moves that they rarely get a chance to attack. Surprisingly fixed in Lost World of all games. It's also an issue for Modern Sonic.
    • To reiterate, scripting every event in the game is lazy and cheap. Stop doing it.

    If Sonic Team can really get around to fixing those issues, I'll be stoked. They've had so long to work on this game with well over a year left yet, so they best be putting the effort in. Classic Sonic reappearing is incredibly unfavourable from a storyline/canon point of view. Not going to change my mind very easily on that. I'm excited as far as the gameplay is concerned though.
     
  8. LowSeasCaroz

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    Because someone mentioned how Sonic Team thinks they have to pad out the gameplay in Boost games...
    I know some people are going to disagree with me on this, but I always thought that the DS games got the way boost gameplay SHOULD be used in a Sonic game right: The games aren't heavily scripted (instead you have stage gimmicks or "interactive scripted sequences" like the hangglider in Rush, the rails in RA, the wisps in Colours), and even when you think you need the boost, Sonic's top speed in combination with the R-Trigger moves (Homing attack and Air Dash) is usually enough to clear obstacles. Because of the trick system, the games rewarded good timing (and button-mashing) with more boost. And more boost lets you go through stages quicker, rewarding you with better ranks. But you were also allowed to go through the stages on many different routes, encouraging multiple playthroughs of the stages. That's what made Rush so good, despite being relatively short.
    Sonic Rush didn't need any padding to make people glad they spent their money on it. Rush Adventure, however tried to pad out the gameplay with unnecessary Minigames etc., and it negatively impacted the game itself - which didn't stop Sonic Team from doing the same thing in Unleashed.

    When Unleashed adapted the boost style of gameplay, they made the level design pretty much the same in every level and put the same gimmicks (QTE ramps, QTE bouncepads, QTE cannons) in every stage. Even the ice sled was reused once (in Eggmanland)! The fact that the game had worse controls than Rush and RA, but required you to do more platforming, didn't make it better. And instead of using the 3D perspective to let you see bottomless pits and other obstacles more easily, some stages just throw them at you, resulting in really frustrating trial-and-error moments (The DS games also had those, but I actually felt rewarded when I made it through a difficult part, because they still required a decent amount of skill). All of that made the day stages in Unleashed feel shallow and not really worth replaying. And - as we all know - Unleashed has the worst example of padding out gameplay time in the entire series, but you should probably know by now why the Werehog was a bad idea.

    Colours improved upon these aspects significantly, but they also made the game even more automated than Unleashed, the best example being the parts of Starlight Carnival where you don't do anything for almost 30 seconds. For an unneccessarily big part of the game, it seems to play itself, just running forward and occasionally homingattacking enemies. Yeah, instead of the Werehog, there are the more platform-y "Side"-Acts, but they're kid of clunky (partially because the controls still aren't perfect) and not too much fun to play.
    Generations' modern stages don't really change the formula.

    So while the DS games aren't perfect by any means, I just prefer the way D***S (not gonna mention it, cause I know that will upset some folks here) handled the boost gameplay in the DS games over the way Sonic Team handles it, because they're not nearly as linear and scripted - kind of like the Mega Drive and Advance games, actually.

    I'd be happy if Sonic Team tried to deviate from the Unleashed/Colours/Generations formula when it comes to level design. Someone already mentioned Classic Seaside Hill, with its multiple pathways. If all the levels in the next game are designed like that, it would make the "padding" that has plagued modern Sonic games (except Lost World, which actually did have a lot of different paths) unnecessary. What made me replay Sonic 1 and 2 over and over again wasn't running through loop to loops in GHZ or the speedbooster sections in Chemical Plant Zone (in other words: the automated sequences), it was the amount of ways you could play the games. And while Generations and Lost World were steps in the right direction, it still wasn't quite enough to make me think "I want to play through these games again". My point is: if a game has a lot of replayability, it doesn't need padding.
     
  9. I know that a lot of people stated that they would rather play a short, fun game rather than a longer, but less satisfying game. In my case, however, if the game doesn't have a decent amount of content as well as being a good game, then I wouldn't have as much motivation to replay the levels.

    I would guess that they wouldn't need anything to pad out the gameplay in Sonic Rush and similar games because they're entirely 2D games. The level design and mechanics in the 3D boost games seem to encourage going forward quickly; you wouldn't suddenly want to stop moving in order to explore the left and right areas of a level. The 3D sections of the 3D boost games tend to be overtly linear, and it probably wouldn't be interesting to stay in 3D mode for the entirety of it. The 2D boost games like Sonic Rush wouldn't suffer from those problems as much.
     

  10. Personally, I'm not partial to Sonic Rush level design, too bare bones to me, and it suffered some of the same tepid feeling as the sidescrolling segments in the Day/modern stages.
    Colors also felt lacking and 90% of it was sidescrolling as well, because 3d boosting couldn't support the game. The really zoomed out camera view was also unattractive and did it no favors, presentation wise, for me either.
    Rush and Colors managed to not be as bad as Shadow, 06 or Black Knight though, so they just looked like filet mignon, proportionate to those. That's simply not enough of an accomplishment for me personally.

    The boost gameplay is probably just not something absolutely necessary honestly, never mind that it can't even fill out an entire game anyway.
    If the 3d boost gameplay can't support itself, then I think it might as well be relegated to special stages or segments like the mach speed sections in Sonic 06, while the rest of the game takes place in more practical 3d and level design. I'm not very partial to the Temple Run style or constant swapping between 3d perscpective and sidescrolling, I would instead like to play Sonic in 3d if we are making a 3d game.
     
  11. Chimera

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    if anyones stil upset about the "cynicism," I'll just repeat/add to what TimmiT said.

    Its not as much we're being cynical for the hell of it as much as we expect--and WANT--a good fucking game from this studio for once (or again whatever). It's a developer and publisher with a track record for shit desicions. Being all hyped about something we know dickall about is arguably less useful than being critical of the same said thing, provided said criticism has some weight to it.

    Much of the talk about the "boost forumla" is because that seems like the likely direction this game is going based on what they've shown (there's an obvious focus on speed in their marketing direction countering the Lost World platform-heavy style). Part of that discussion is of course if that's even a good thing. There are still people who thought the modern gameplay wasnt even good at all. If you want a game to be good, finding out why people say otherwise, or recognizing why YOU feel otherwise, is very important to understanding what works, what doesn't, and how a series can be improved past "it just feels weird."

    Being casually optomistic towards a series that has objectively produced broken games they don't give a rats ass about, expecting us to buy them anyway, does not help. No one here WANTS this series/game to fail, and if they do theyve either got issues or want SEGA to burn to the ground and sell their assets (which is what I want from Konami so I can relate). We don't know shit about the actual content of the game yet, but we do know the general DIRECTION they're going, or at least the one they're marketing to us... and its not pointing in a very stable direction.

    If you ask me I'll be "happy for once" if they actually give me a reason to. Else I'm gonna stay devisive so I don't mistake my hype like I did the last two fucking core games in a row.

    Also while understanding WHY something works is good for a critical understanding, that really is something the fucking developers/publishers should have an idea of. Ah well :specialed:
     
  12. Iggy for Short

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    It's hard NOT to be skeptical when the one thing SEGA has shown off is the return of Classic Sonic, which not only feels like a rather cheap (and, with Mania on the way, somewhat redundant) attempt at building hype, but probably means we're getting yet another game that divides itself in half instead of even trying to make a full game out of the boost gameplay style.

    Hopefully with how long they're taking it'll at LEAST feel like a substantial game this time, instead of something half-done.
     
  13. Ayu Tsukimiya

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    All of the issues mentioned in this thread about the boost gameplay are probably why Adventure-style fans are so upset, besides the lack of chao gardens.

    You could easily argue that most Adventure-styled games had even more linear level designs, but they were still more interesting to play through. You had open areas where you could look around and find things, you had winding pathways, the enemies could actually hurt you and you had to defeat them like you would in classic gameplay instead of boosting through them, you had more control over your character most of the time, etc. Boost gameplay just sort of gives you long hallways to run through with nothing much in terms of challenge besides "dodge this pit/switch rails/avoid the laser that enemy is shooting at you." Plus, even though Generations had different pathways (which was a good thing), it was still sort of a "select your hallway" kind of situation in my eyes.

    The boost stages can be fun, but they really shouldn't be what makes up the main gameplay.
     
  14. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    While I understand the sentiment you're conveying, I have to significantly disagree. There certainly are hallway-esque designs in boost formula levels, but when they open up, they put the openness of the Adventure games to shame.

    I've been playing through Unleashed again, purposefully limiting the amount of times I use the boost. When that factor is taken out of the equation and you look at the level design of the boost games on their own merit (disregarding Colors which certainly does fall almost entirely in your hallway viewpoint) you see the most sprawling areas in any 3D Sonic title period. Even the more narrow levels like Rooftop Run and Dragon Road still have sprawling areas open to exploration.

    In Generations, the pathways and plazas of Modern City Escape are far larger and more open than the SA2 original; just as Modern Seaside Hill's areas are far larger than the Sonic Heroes' designs. The ONLY thing that makes this fairly unknown is Sonic's significantly higher accelleration and overall pace.

    So really, the issue is not the boost formula's level design, but Sonic's higher speed. But if you compare the levels side by side, most of the boost formula levels are emperically more open. The higher speeds merely do not cater enough to the level designs strengths.

    And unlike the Adventure titles, things like Red Rings and even the sun and moon medals (despite the latter's implementation being awful) gives reason to slow down and seek out the more explorative paths.
     
  15. Amnimator

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    Something I wanted to point out is how the trailer's production looks noticeably different than any of the prerendered shorts we were shown before, and I think I know why. I remember I was looking through Marza Animation Planet's stuff (The guys who do the cover art, trailers, pretty cutscenes, etc.) and they said they had a new workflow set up. Apparently recently they decided to render their shorts real time within Unity. In all honesty, this seems like a pretty clever workflow; it makes it easier to go back and make fine touches as well. They announced they'd do this roughly three and a half months ago, and while not explicitly stated that this trailer uses this new workflow, the renderer looks pretty darn similar to their short The Gift, which was done with Unity.
     
  16. Aesculapius Piranha

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    Kinda surprised at all these replies complaining about "classic" Sonic. I honestly wish they'd just realize the SA redesign is a failure already and just start pretending it never happened. "Adventure" Sonic doesn't need to be in this. Just keep generations game play with the better designs.
     
  17. DropDash

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    I was glad to see Classic Sonic there. It basically guarantees we'll get a quality game since they'd be too afraid to tarnish the Sonic that represents a good experience, with all that nostalgia behind it.

    Modern Sonic could be retired for good and I wouldn't bat an eyelid, Classic Sonic has always been the best design in my opinion.
     
  18. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

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    I genuinely wouldn't be shocked if Modern Sonic's design as we know it gets retired after Project 2017. Modern got practically no exposure in merchandising or marketing for the 25th Anniversary and no one made a fuss.

    Considering how much the Sonic series snagged from Dragon Ball Z, I actually half-expect Classic and Modern to fuse into Saturn-era Neo Classic Sonic and gets the best of both worlds (seriously, Saturn-era Classic is the best iteration of the character).

    Clean up the franchise a little. A Saturn-era Classic for the main series (both 2D and 3D titles) and Boom Sonic for... whatever Boom is doing.
     
  19. What makes the Sonic Adventure redesign a failure? The fact that it doesn't look exactly like the classic design? That's preposterous. Also, I don't see how classic Sonic appearing in this game guarantees that the game will be good. I don't understand why people put so much importance on the design of the character.
     
  20. Atendega

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    This. Are we seriously going back to the days of green-eye complaints?