don't click here

Sonic Colours out for Wii/DS

Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, May 26, 2010.

  1. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    <!--quoteo(post=572928:date=Mar 26 2011, 09:57 PM:name=MegaDash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MegaDash @ Mar 26 2011, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=572928">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's good presentation, Chimpo. A game isn't cool or up-to-date if it doesn't have it. Stop livin' in the past, d00d.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I know you're being sarcastic for the sake of making a point, but this is a horrible reason.

    I'm playing a platformer, not Final Fantasy. There are better and more suitable ways to make a game presentable than resorting to cutscenes.

    Colors does it well enough. It gets to the point and isn't full of itself like previous entries in the series. I would greatly preferred if newer Sonic games followed its model.
     
  2. MegaDash

    MegaDash

    Pinpricks Member
    2,397
    0
    0
    Off
    <!--quoteo(post=572929:date=Mar 27 2011, 01:00 AM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Mar 27 2011, 01:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=572929">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=572928:date=Mar 26 2011, 09:57 PM:name=MegaDash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MegaDash @ Mar 26 2011, 09:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=572928">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's good presentation, Chimpo. A game isn't cool or up-to-date if it doesn't have it. Stop livin' in the past, d00d.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I know you're being sarcastic for the sake of making a point, but this is a horrible reason.

    I'm playing a platformer, not Final Fantasy. There are better and more suitable ways to make a game presentable than resorting to cutscenes.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Oh, I know it. Trust me. Half Life is one of my favorite games of all time. I will literally play it again and again, even moreso than it's arguably superior sequel, because not only does it not waste time and resources on cinematics at all, it's also an excellently seamless FPS adventure with tons of intrinsic replay value. Intrinsic replay value! Half Life 2 is much better, and ultimately a different game, but it clearly has a stronger emphasis on plot with the introduction of key characters other than Gordon Freeman and the G-Man, and so it ultimately results in more exposition, but it still never takes control away from the player and never bogs them down with too much plot.

    I'm won't say plots and good presentation are bad, but I will say they're strictly secondary and arguably irrelevant next to strong, robust, and replayable game design. The better the game, the less time it wastes on taking the player's control away to show them a movie. If the game is bad or lacking in some way, no amount of story or good writing can possibly save it as a game. It might make for a good saturday morning cartoon in Sonic's case, though.

    EDIT: A good plot sets the mood, makes sparing use of cutscenes to show important events or focus briefly on characters, and gets in the way of the game the least possible.
     
  3. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    Half-Life is a fantastic example. Hell, Portal and Left 4 Dead are great examples too.

    Nothing is spoon fed to you in the form of non-interactive cutscenes. You pick it up as you go and you feel immersed in the game's world. These are the kinds of games you remember because they offer you a unique experience to get involved with the world and characters and they're all done while you're playing the game.

    I'm not saying Sonic games should follow Valve's example, but they shouldn't follow what every other game is doing just because every game is doing it. Those are the games you forget.
     
  4. MegaDash

    MegaDash

    Pinpricks Member
    2,397
    0
    0
    Off
    What was so great about Half Life in contrast to Doom, Duke Nukem, and other old FPS classics was that it threw off the established conventions of level-by-level progression and period text-or-cinema-based plot presentation. It brought a new, welcome experience to the genre. This, in a very general and abstract sense, is what I want to see in a 3D Sonic game: something new that simply works well on a fundamental gameplay basis. Colors was a good start because even though it did use cutscenes, the overarching plot itself was very thin and silly, and the experience was more dominated by fun, simple gameplay in mostly 2D but also 3D. It's unfortunate that the 3D gameplay could not have been as strong as the best examples put forth by Unleashed and the Adventure games, but I still found the 2D majority of the game extremely fun in it's unusual approach to 3D Sonic games. Hell, the design was different from 2D Sonic games, and used maybe two-to-three quarters less speed boosters and bumpers than the most recent 2D Sonic games.

    The Wisps were a dynamite idea for the game that unfortunately suffered the same execution problems of Sonic's jumping/double-jumping/homing attack. At least partly so. It was probably the first time Sonic Team's experimentation got them something that worked. It is a shame they ended up giving up a dimension to do it, but for the game itself, I was just glad they made it fun.
     
  5. Steven M

    Steven M

    Member
    394
    0
    0
    Speaking of getting right into the game without any annoying cutscenes getting in the way, I sure enjoy that pointless unskippable autotuned intro sequence I have to watch every time I boot up the disc. What about you guys?
     
  6. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    You can skip it.
     
  7. DustArma

    DustArma

    Member
    1,321
    5
    18
    Santiago, Chile
    Learning Python.
    <!--quoteo(post=572942:date=Mar 27 2011, 03:04 AM:name=Steven M)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Steven M @ Mar 27 2011, 03:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=572942">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Speaking of getting right into the game without any annoying cutscenes getting in the way, I sure enjoy that pointless unskippable autotuned intro sequence I have to watch every time I boot up the disc. What about you guys?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You can skip it, just press Start if you are using a gamecube controller (I guess it would be + for the Wiimote)
     
  8. MegaDash

    MegaDash

    Pinpricks Member
    2,397
    0
    0
    Off
    Derp.

    The cutscenes work the same way. They still intrusive by nature, but you don't have to watch them if you've already seen them.

    Hey, you know those Unleashed shorts with Chip and Sonic that you found/unlocked? Perhaps unlocking cutscenes to watch later, or toggling them on/off in the options menu, would be a better way to handle story in a platforming adventure game. Unless they're especially important to pointing you where to go in the game.
     
  9. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    I still insist that cutscenes should be gone for platformers. The Unleashed shorts were nice but they added nothing aside from some development between Sonic and Chip, which could have been done in game as well. And the story itself should not be something that you have to look for outside the game.

    Taking Unleashed for example, would you prefer watching the opening, or playing a level presented in a similar way as the opening? As soon as you hit the start button, the title screen scrolls away as the camera pans to Robotnik's space fleet. The camera quickly rooms by a couple of ships until it starts focusing on a blue streak causing explosions. The camera quickly moves to the scene and then adjust itself behind it. You now take control of Sonic and the entire opening cutscene is an introduction level that sets up not only the story but how the game is played. It blends the two seamlessly and keeps the player on the action of the story rather than on the sidelines as a viewer. There's no need for a cutscenes when dialogue can be presented during gameplay, or hell, do away with it and just SHOW it happening in the middle of the game like Half-Life.

    There's really no need for a cutscene for a game like this when you can get the player involved in the action and provide a much better memorable experience than just sit on the couch and put your controller down.
     
  10. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    I can agree to an extent, but I don't think cutscenes should be left out entirely. To be honest, I like story in my Sonic games. Just not heavy-handed like in '06 and taking itself more seriously than it should like in Unleashed. Do you know what game handled its cutscenes perfectly? Sonic Heroes. The little mini-cutscenes that took place before zones and bosses added a little bit of context to the world, almost the same way S3&K did, just with dialogue. If they were to a. keep level progression consistent like in S3&K and Unleashed and not jump around to random locations like in Sonic 1,2 or Heroes, then those kinds of cutscenes would add to the atmosphere of the game, and not beat you over the head with plot and needless exposition.

    Big cutscene at the beginning, mini-context-setting-cutscenes occasionally to introduce zones and bosses, big finisher cutscene to top it off. No needless exposition, no extra fat, just beef.
     
  11. The KKM

    The KKM

    Welcome to the nExt level Member
    2,239
    63
    28
    Portugal
    IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog comic books
    Maybe not remove cutscenes, just FMVs? I mean, the inbetween-level cutscenes in Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles or Sonic 4 are quite spiffy.
     
  12. serpx

    serpx

    Member
    572
    5
    18
    The only reason I don't support abolishing cutscenes from Sonic games is this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjlqzGDDLjA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjlqzGDDLjA</a>

    Conversely, that would be BADASS if it all happened as you ran around the city -- so, perhaps it'd be an interesting take to abolish cutscenes.

    Anyways, if anything, they should definitely be used less, and I love the idea of being pushed straight into the game, like the classics, and then decorate some story here and there later on.
     
  13. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    <!--quoteo(post=573050:date=Mar 27 2011, 12:41 PM:name=TheKazeblade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheKazeblade @ Mar 27 2011, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573050">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can agree to an extent, but I don't think cutscenes should be left out entirely. To be honest, I like story in my Sonic games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's fine and all, but a cutscene in a video game is not the only way to tell a story.

    It's an interactive medium. There are better way to do it.
     
  14. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    <!--quoteo(post=573056:date=Mar 27 2011, 01:01 PM:name=Chimpo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chimpo @ Mar 27 2011, 01:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573056">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=573050:date=Mar 27 2011, 12:41 PM:name=TheKazeblade)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheKazeblade @ Mar 27 2011, 12:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573050">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can agree to an extent, but I don't think cutscenes should be left out entirely. To be honest, I like story in my Sonic games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    That's fine and all, but a cutscene in a video game is not the only way to tell a story.

    It's an interactive medium. There are better way to do it.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yes, there are. But I don't think that Sonic would necessarily benefit from it at where the medium is now. Developers have only recently determined ways to successfully incorporate narrative in a sophisticated way without using cutscenes. Half Life was used as an example of this. Sonic is not Half Life, though; it doesn't have that high-class, intricate and mature narrative, and asking the series to pioneer this type of story telling, especially considering what Sega has given us thus far in terms of story, would end in disaster.

    Not saying it won't work, and I actually hope this is where all major titles go as far as narrative goes. But call me short-sighted, but I don't see Sonic successfully transitioning to this style of story-telling anytime soon.
     
  15. Chimpo

    Chimpo

    Member
    7,310
    2
    18
    Atomic Sonic Part II
    It was mentioned multiple times that Half-Life was an example of doing something different from the norm can lead to a better experience. At no point was anyone suggesting that Sonic games should copy the Valve model.
     
  16. MegaDash

    MegaDash

    Pinpricks Member
    2,397
    0
    0
    Off
    <!--quoteo(post=573055:date=Mar 27 2011, 04:00 PM:name=serpx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpx @ Mar 27 2011, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573055">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only reason I don't support abolishing cutscenes from Sonic games is this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjlqzGDDLjA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjlqzGDDLjA</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They're nice if they're used sparingly, and that's a decent example. Another one is the island explosion FMV in Sonic Adventure 2. Those were the only FMV cutscenes in either games, so they're much more memorable and enjoyable, but they're anything but necessary. Even worse is if there are several cutscenes that take you out of the game, which will progressively bore the player with each additional cutscene. They're nice, but too much of nice things spoil.

    To complement Chimpo's example, take any Mega Man X game. You have an intro stage that could've easily been replaced by an FMV or some kind of animation for the whole stage. Instead, you simply play the prologue and watch it unfold while you're actively involved in it, sometimes right after an in-game scripted event where X and company do something cool or before another in-game cutscene centered on the shadowy villains and their plotting on their moon base.

    In X1, It doesn't really matter that you can't kill Vile in the highway stage because you can at least put up a good fight and get a feel for how to fight him later ... <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>and even then you still lose, but that's besides the point :v:</span>. The game doesn't take the control away and force you to watch X lose, and it's fun just to see how long you can last.

    In X2, you get to watch X <strike>and that green biker dude</strike> storm a reploid factory by crashing his speeder bike into turret bot's legs before rushing in past the shutter bots, all to kickass prologue music. Same deal for X3 through X6, albeit in different situations<span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>; X7 and X8 are rather meh.</span>

    Now, this doesn't mean Sonic can't have nice cutscenes, but it does mean they're unnecessary and more often than not don't add anything to the actual game that can't be accomplished while in the game.

    EDIT: And hey, if you don't like the Half Life example, take Super Mario 64. That game also didn't have much in the way of full-blown cutscenes. It starts with a letter from Peach to Mario, and then BAM—you're at the castle. Go play. Whee!

    And if you needed help on where to go or what to do, talk to Toad or anyone around who's friendly.
     
  17. TheKazeblade

    TheKazeblade

    "Our Life is More than a Side-Effect" Member
    <!--quoteo(post=573068:date=Mar 27 2011, 01:26 PM:name=MegaDash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MegaDash @ Mar 27 2011, 01:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573068">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In X1, It doesn't really matter that you can't kill Vile in the highway stage because you can at least put up a good fight and get a feel for how to fight him later ... <span style='color:#000000;background:#000000'>and even then you still lose, but that's besides the point :v:</span>. The game doesn't take the control away and force you to watch X lose, and it's fun just to see how long you can last.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The original Sonic games did this as well, with occasionally Robotnik showing up, such as in Marble Garden Zone. You can't kill him, and its not a cutscene, but it works well to move the plot forward. But its done in tandem just as in Megaman X.

    Cutscenes are good when they don't detract from the gameplay. Are they necessary? No. Technically, the only thing necessary in a game is gameplay. But cutscenes, when used sparingly and as a supplement, can work fine for a platformer. I don't think its the best option, but its an option that works; and since I don't see them leaving Sonic games anytime soon, I think that their involvement should be perfected, not nixed quite yet.
     
  18. Flare

    Flare

    Member
    858
    146
    43
    I like the structure of Sonic Unleashed, story v gameplay wise, just enough of each for it become engaging which I always thinks adds to a game much in the same way that music can.
     
  19. Overlord

    Overlord

    Now playable in Smash Bros Ultimate Moderator
    18,735
    661
    93
    Berkshire, England
    Long-term happiness
    <!--quoteo(post=573068:date=Mar 27 2011, 09:26 PM:name=MegaDash)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MegaDash @ Mar 27 2011, 09:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573068">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=573055:date=Mar 27 2011, 04:00 PM:name=serpx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (serpx @ Mar 27 2011, 04:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=573055">[​IMG]</a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The only reason I don't support abolishing cutscenes from Sonic games is this: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjlqzGDDLjA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjlqzGDDLjA</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They're nice if they're used sparingly, and that's a decent example. Another one is the island explosion FMV in Sonic Adventure 2. Those were the only FMV cutscenes in either games, so they're much more memorable and enjoyable, but they're anything but necessary.
    <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Actually, SA2 had a couple more - the Eclipse Cannon blasting the shit out of the moon was FMV, as was the shuttle taking off. But I agree with your general point.
     
  20. Clutch

    Clutch

    It was a dark and stormy night... Member
    1,653
    0
    16
    I don't mind cutscenes so long as they aren't badly written, badly voiced, or ugly, though might like to see the Half-Life approach. Ignoring the beginning and ending animations (which really, is anyone complaining about those?) Sonic CD sortof did it back in the day with Metal Sonic and Amy's interactions.