Discussion in 'General Sonic Discussion' started by TimmiT, May 26, 2010.
Ok your right there. I'll give them that.
You know what happened last time fan feedback was taken verbatim? This.
Although if Big was in a dating sim, it'd be the most awesome dating sim ever.
EDIT: That's better.
Jim can say whatever he likes. All I know is I didn't care much for his review of Colors. The game did have some inexcusable niggles like the wonky jump and double jump juxtaposed with the overextended range of the homing attack, some of the Wisps controlled like a sloppy joe dipped in bacon grease (well, really just two of them), and the 3D sections could've controlled better and been designed with a more deeply satisfying gaming experience in mind, but overall it was a far more fun and expansive experience than I had gotten from Unleashed Wii or Heroes. That counts for a good chunk of change. I just don't think SEGA should stop there and rest on their laurels or backtrack to moronic mediocrity, no. They should springboard into a brighter tomorrow with their games.
Oh, as for fan feedback? There's a difference between waiting on every beck and call from a set of the fanbase, or even the most quantifiable power set, and taking their suggestions based on what they should already know about how to make a good game, let alone a good Sonic game. There's a reason why they're the professionals working in the industry and we're the ones congregating on forums to talk about them and their products, and not the other way around.
I certainly felt like I played Splash Hill Zone a billion times over when the game came out from the months of nothing but Splash Hill Zone media released. :v:
Colors is a damn good game. If I had to think of anything they would need to improve in the future, it's Sonic's jumping. It's not terrible, but it's not as smooth as I wish it was.
Everything else balances out for it be one hell of an enjoyable game. I really should play through it again soon.
So guys, turns out Sonic 1 isn't the only game Colors steals basic level structure from. With no opening cutscene, no hub worlds, no missions, no extra unlockables, and about five hours of gameplay, this totally warranted full retail price, amirite? Congratulations Sega on creating the most cowardly game this side of Mega Man 13.
At least it would actually feel like a Mega Man game.
I don't see it. Like, at all. It's a scrolling level with lots of platforms and a bottomless pit, it's not like Mario has a monopol on that kind of structure.
The levels start out exactly the same with the one initial small pit that's there or no reason. At around 0:37 in the first video and 0:42 in the second video, there's the same "floor and ceiling" structure, followed by the same raised block that lets you pause before the next platforming section. The worst kicks in at around 0:56 in the first video and 1:02 in the second with the "platform against a block wall" structure, with the same exact platform hovering at the bottom of the screen and afterwards.
Also notice the "L"-block shape they snuck in during the vertical section. I'm convinced there's another area somewhere in SMB3 or SMW that's similar to the vertical part too, but I can't be bothered to go check. For the record, SMW, Mega Man, and DKC have had scrolling levels as well, but none of them were designed specifically like this.
I'm going to check to see where they got the stupid little conveyor belt in Planet Wisp from. I don't remember seeing it in any Mario game, but it seems like a basic structure that I've seen in some platformer (perhaps all of them) before.
I can see it... but I really don't see what you're point is.
The level design has some extremely small similarities to a level from SMB3, so? I don't see anything wrong with taking inspiration from one of the best platforming games there is.
Besides, the comparison to Game Land is not really fair. A majority of the first Act from the 6 original Zones has been recreated in Game Land, but the other stages are original (and they probably did it on purpose). Just like that video: some parts are vaguely similar, so? The rest of the stage is completely different, What are you trying to say, that Sonic Team copied every single level from another game, just because there is a slightly (and vague) similarity?
I take issue with "With no opening cutscene, no hub worlds, no missions, no extra unlockables, and about five hours of gameplay". True, it had no cutscene before the game shoved you into the first level, and that did annoy me... But in the DS version, there were missions. Besides, in the Wii version, getting all the red rings, S ranks and Chaos Emeralds is plenty for replay value. And getting all the Gameland stages and Super Sonic ARE extra unlockables, and the latter is a damn awesome one (that could have used a double jump and wisp powers) if you ask me.
And as for beating the game in five hours? I can beat most Sonic games in that time! The exceptions usually are padded out to be longer by useless stuff like terrible mandatory or optional player characters or alternate (usually slower/more boring/worse) gameplay styles. And I'd argue that hub worlds aren't even that useful or good- if it's mandatory, it's annoying when you want to revisit old levels. If a game's going to have hub worlds, it should have a normal level select too, so you have the choice of easy access, or taking the longer-but-"better" way to enter stages.
Not Green Hill Zone
Not Marble Zone
Not Spring Yard Zone
Not Labyrinth Zone
Not Star Light Zone
Not Scrap Brain Zone
That's a total of six levels gone completely to waste. This is being generous considering the complete lack of depth, life, or creativity in the other fifteen Game Land levels. It feels exactly what I thought it was at first - test levels. There's a point when "vague similarity" just turns into downright laziness. There's almost more fanservice in this game than there is actual content. Little things like Sonic eating a chili dog in the first cutscene are fine but when it affects the gameplay itself like this, it's unacceptable. There's almost an entire minute's worth of cutscene filler in Starlight Carnival Act 1 alone.
I'm not denying the similarities between those 6 Acts and those 6 stages from Game-Land, but there are still 14 more stages in Game Land. Are they copied too? And what about the 40 stages from the single player mode? You showed us that similarity with that one Act. Can you do the same for other stages?
Because (6+1) over (39+14) doesn't seem like the "majority" to me.
Like it or not, but fanservice as entire levels sells.
Super Mario Galaxy 2 had a remake of a Super Mario 64 level and an extra world with stuff from previous games, people loved it.
Halo Reach has a few remakes of maps from previous Halo games, people loved it.
Sonic Colours has remakes of Sonic 1 levels, you get the idea.
I agree about Starlight Carnival act 1 having a bit too much cinematic stuff though.
READ WHAT HE FUCKING SAID.
He KNOWS those six exist. That's why he fucking mentioned them. And since you're being a complete dick:
Because the presence of an opening cutscene completely changes the quality of the gameplay.
Because everybody loves hub worlds. Oh, right, most of us have been complaining about them, and are glad to see them gone.
If you're rushing through it, and not trying to get the red rings, chaos emeralds, or Super Sonic.
Yes, you're right. It totally did warrant full retail price, being the best 3D Sonic game I've ever played.
EDIT: Also, you design a level similar to Aquarium Park 5. I bet I can find similarities to a Mario level in there too.
Then what about them chili dog missions in Unleashed? :specialed:
Gotta agree with the argument about how Starlight Carnival is almost completely wasted on cutscenes and automation.
It's not just about the level designs. Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2, Unleashed SD and HD, NSMBWii, DKCR, and most other major mainstream platformers these day clock in at about double the time it takes to beat Colors with oodles of unlockable extras and content beyond the main game. Sonic Team was so afraid to add something new that they got rid of things that were never an issue to begin with, and as a result, we have what could be the smallest mainstream "3D" Sonic game to date. Even SA2 was stuffed to the brim with extras compared to this game. And what do we get to replace it with? Eggman as the final boss, Super Sonic in levels, and new voice actors. Did we really need it that much to the point where it's worth sacrificing half a game for it?
DigitalDuck, you seem upset. Care for a cup of tea?
I can't believe you're actually defending this one. A post-1998 game with no opening cutscene is like a 1990 game with no title screen. It's called presentation. Colors is so sloppy it doesn't even have one. Try again, broseph.
Like I've said a hundred times before in this thread, he's just a shiny reskin that adds nothing to the gameplay. Come back to me when you've got an unlockable worth talking about.
Assuming you're serious, the chili dog missions were just missions. They're there to give you an incentive to replay the levels for a better score/time. No different from the missions in every other Sonic game. This is different, as it wastes resources to give us things we've already seen before. Nearly every single Wisp is just an ability from a previous Sonic or Mario game with a time limit on it, maybe with the exception of the drill.
Sorry, but that's what arguing with someone of much lower intelligence does to me.
I'm not defending it. I just really don't see what difference a fucking opening cutscene makes. Presentation or no, it has no effect on the gameplay whatsoever.
A reskin that adds nothing to gameplay? Have you ever even PLAYED as Super Sonic? I'm guessing not. In fact, that statement just... what?
Opening cutscenes most people skip. :specialed:
I can somehow understand your point, but... "they got rid of things that were never an issue to begin with"? I don't think every 3D Sonic game since 1999 has been shit, and most of them had something I would like to see again, but things that were never an issue? Opinions, but the majority of the review sites and fans does not agree with this. Many things were cited as unnecessary and many fans hated what they done in some games. Colours has a lot of fanservice, just like the returning Badniks, probably because it tried to appeal to those fans. Is this really a problem? I mean, have the Badniks "ruined" the game? They could have used generic enemies, but they would have still served the same purpose.
Besides, Colours is not the first Sonic game with artificial lenght. Sonic Adventure had 6 stories, but only 11 stages. They were played differently, but they were still the same stages (and again, some characters or their gameplay weren't well received), and no unlockables (in the original version there was no Metal Sonic for you, and that is still a glorified skin change in the end. At least Super Sonic has God Mode on). Heroes is even worse (4 teams, but the same stages, with different difficulty level), and you still had to replay the same game 4 times to see the ending (with the only real difference being in the Chaotix levels). Unleashed was longer than Colours, but most of the time is passed by playing the Night Levels, which could take even a whole 10 minutes on the first playthrough, or with post game features, like the Hot Dog mission (not needed to see the ending. This is what I mean for Post-Game). Colours isn't that different. You complete the 40 normal stages, and then you have the Game Land Acts for post game content. Or Challenge Mode. Not worth if you don't like them, but they're there. You cited DKCR. Right, you unlock Mirror Mode after beating the secret stage. It's harder, it's a challenge, and the stages are mirrored, and I liked it, but it is really that different? Aren't those the same stages you played the first time? Couldn't Retro have created a full Lost World like in Donkey Kong Country 2? But Donkey Kong Country Returns is still an amazing game in my opinion. Just like Colours. Are those things you cited so terrible they ruin the whole game?
And I don't want to say this, but I still don't understand what are you trying to say with that video. Like the "L-Block" part. So, there is an L-Block structure in both stages, even if they play differently and have a different purpose (the one in Colours is an obstacle. It damages the player). And? It's a shape. It's like that so the player can't get to the Red Ring without thinking a bit. What are you trying to say? If it was a T-Block, would that make more original?
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