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Sonic Classic Heroes

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by flamewing, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. dsrb

    dsrb

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    That Amy sprite is cute! Not in a weird way :O

    E122-Psi: I'm glad that you're still considering using your (great) other Amy set. :) I'm also interested to see who ends up in the team and how it plays. (And the same for other teams that have been heavily hinted.) This hack is just going to get more and more interesting!
     
  2. E-122-Psi

    E-122-Psi

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    Interesting indeed. Surprised how many colors have been compressed onto that one line. Different characters are being used in this case however so it may not be that easy.
     
  3. flamewing

    flamewing

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    The big issue with that palette as far as my hack goes is super transformations: Amy's skirt, Eggman's suspenders*, Knuckles' shoes* and Metal Sonic's chest would flash with Tails; Amy's spines and headband, Metal Sonic's eyes and everyone's shoes would flash with Knuckles; Eggman's clothes and mustache would flash with Knuckles; and some of Metal Sonic's blues would flash with Sonic.

    * Those happen in my hack, and in S3&K when possible (Super Tails and Eggman).
     
  4. ICEknight

    ICEknight

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    Color me surprised, it's just such a shame for the Super transformations.

    Thanks for the pic, very informative.
     
  5. amphobius

    amphobius

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    Honestly, since I'm not a fan of Classic Amy's design, it'll be D for me.

    Consider the context of the team however - there's no classic designs for Cream or Tikal, so it makes more sense to use Modern Amy for consistency.

    ...speaking of consistency, you can't have two Amy designs in the same game, can you? Seems heavily redundant if you go with D to have Classic Amy piloting the Tornado at the end for Team Sonic.
     
  6. Fred

    Fred

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    Actually, no you didn't. It was in the early days of this very topic, back in 2010. (The image link has since then been broken.) I'm flattered that you actually saved it! Even though that Knuckles sprite is absolutely hideous.

    Of course the picture just had to get decent attention now that it's shamelessly outdated. But hey, have a new version, which gradually ended up changing into something quite different. This one cheats a bit by using a dark gray on the second palette line for Eggman's pants.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. FeliciaVal

    FeliciaVal

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    oh my bad then XD I usually have this tendency of forgetting stuff...but yeah, I saved the pic way before for using it as reference and I had it since then.
    What's wrong with the Knuckles sprite anyways? It looks fine to me... I just now noticed that the Sonic sprite looked different lol
    And oh the new update looks much better now, at least I like the colours less 'shiny' now. Not a big fan of the Tails sprite...but oh well, it looks good non the less.
     
  8. Flare

    Flare

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    Wow, I love this idea, and how technical it all is. But not a big fan on Tails' ears... also this is so far from the visual style heroes had... maybe more this.
    [​IMG]
     
  9. Jimmy Hedgehog

    Jimmy Hedgehog

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    Should TOTALLY be an optional "skin" for Team Sonic XD Looking forward to this anyway.
     
  10. flamewing

    flamewing

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    A 'skin' I am thinking of adding is Team Glitch -- Ashura, Blue Knuckles and a glitched Tails. If anyone has ideas for the glitched Tails, feel free to pitch in; I haven't decided on what it would be yet.
     
  11. Bareirito

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    What about Wechnia as Tails? :P

    EDIT: Liking a lot option D.
     
  12. DNLeal

    DNLeal

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    Reading the archives...
    How about Tails with the palette from ********** in Knuckles Chaotix? (which is Mighty's, I think). Consistency ahoy, but yeah, not sure if the palette will allow it.

    Edit: NNNGGHHH ninja'd
     
  13. flamewing

    flamewing

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    Upon further looking, I can't rely on the blues used to be available even in S1 part -- the palette indices in question are used for split palettes, meaning Cheese might look cyan, blue or purple depending on the level and on where he is on-screen.

    I can't use Wechnia and Blue Knuckles at the same time, as they use the same palette line. But I think I can move Tails' tails over to Blue Knuckles like the S3&K ending if you use debug mode+level select to play as Tails on Knuckles' version of Sky Sanctuary zone.

    It doesn't, sadly.
     
  14. Tails for Team glitch?

    While not a glitch, people like to assume he is cursed...why not Tails Doll? I dunno, for some reason I feel like he'd belong. :v:
     
  15. flamewing

    flamewing

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    The current control method allows double-jump actions whenever the character is on-air and vertical speed is greater than -4 pixels/frame. This sometimes gives 'bad' results -- you press a button just a few frames too late to jump off a ledge and you activate the double-jump action instead. This can be disastrous with a bubble shield over a bottomless pit, for example.

    I had an idea to tweak that, has a tiered activation:
    1. Whenever the player is moving with vertical speed -4 pixels/frame <= y_vel < 0 pixels/frame, he can activate the double-jump action;
    2. if the player has vertical speed y_vel >= 0 pixels/frame, and the player has jumped, then he can activate the double-jump action;
    3. if the player has vertical speed y_vel >= 0 pixels/frame, and the player has not jumped (e.g., from a spring), pressing a jump button will set the jump flag, thus enabling a double-jump action by pressing jump again.
    It may be difficult to get used to, but I think it is better than always requiring two presses of the jump button for the double-jump action.

    Another idea is to split the actions -- button C regains control if jumping from rolling (and curls into a ball), button B activates the double-jump action. Thus, if you always jump with C, you don't suffer from the problem above.

    What do you think?
     
  16. Boinciel

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    The best option for a glitched Tails is to mess up his mappings badly and have his sprites be garbled to hell and back while still keeping the same basic tile structure. No new sprites needed, just grab the tile order information from the sound driver or some random address.
     
  17. flamewing

    flamewing

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    Hm. That idea is interesting; it actually doesn't take much randomizing -- just shift his art tile a couple of tiles while still loading the art to the same address. And then shifting his tails over to Blue Knuckles for fun.
     
  18. Tiddles

    Tiddles

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    One idea I just thought of based on that: keep the regular mappings for Tails but shift the object VRAM addr. so he's made of monitor art. This sort of glitch is probably fairly familiar to anyone who's messed with debug in S3/S3K.
     
  19. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

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    Back onto the topic of the double jump... I personally think it's fine the way it is... I'd say that people should just time their jumps correctly. Personally I'm ok with the current setup, I've had 0 problems adjusting... but that's just one opinion.
     
  20. Deef

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    Hmm. My initial reaction to the double-press idea is leave it. Making this change has that "Two wrongs don't make a right" feel. But I won't write it off in my mind without exploring the idea at least.

    The description you gave leaves a few questions, all regarding condition 3.
    1. If the first press of jump doesn't put the character in a curled state, what will the player visibly register?
    2. If the first press of jump DOES put the character in a curled state, you have now given all the characters a 'Curl Up' move. Which means that in correcting one issue you've made a bigger change to the moveset than the issue itself. In other words, "Should I give all the characters a Curl Up move" is I think a bigger question than "Should I address this mistimed jumps issue?"
    3. Either way, if the character is rolling-falling, again I ask what can the player visibly register?
    4. If you consider then only applying this double-press move to uncurled-falling characters, are you comfortable then with the double-press having yet another inconsistency, while at the same time leaving the mistimed jumps issue still unaddressed when rolling off edges?

    So they are the questions that come to mind when imagining it working.

    _____

    I think my main hangup with it is the inconsistency. Firstly, one or the other control method is going to be more common. According to your conditions, the large majority of not-jumped air motion that can respond to jump-button input is falling (y_vel>0). So the double-press could well be the common method (and many posts ago you mentioned not liking this). I can't really say from experience whether using the double-jump move is more commonly done at the peak of a spring-bounce/quarterpipe-fling, or during a fall. Whichever method is more common, the player will have to remember the other one at times.

    Secondly, the distinction is very small. If a player hits a spring, there will be a period where they only need 1 press, then a period where they need 2. The transition between these two timeframes might eventually be something the player learns, or it might be something that feels irritating if the player is trying to curl up and instead does a flame blast or water bounce. It could feel good to have these 2 different periods providing different options, or it could feel bad, I can't say. This will also be the situation for every quarterpipe the player runs out the top of. Now, instead of problems with the player potentially mistiming a jump, we have problems with the player potentially mistiming a Curl-Up. Instead of trying to judge where the plainly visible land ends, the player is now trying to judge when the curve of an invisible flight path peaks.

    It seems to create more to consider than the problem it's solving.

    _____

    Moving on now, note that the issue you're trying to address only exists for Sonic, and only with the fire, water and homing shields. Of course there must be some punishment for mistiming a jump, that's the point of a platformer. Simply falling is the perfectly intuitive and acceptable punishment that all games know. Maybe this is why the special moves were designed the way they were all along; to keep platforming foundations intact. Anyway, what you're saying by trying to address misfires in S2H is that the punishment is too strong, as demonstrated by the water shield example. I'm just clearing up that it only matters for Sonic, and only for 3 shields because: the insta-shield is the same intuitive "just fall" punishment that always existed, the lightning shield is actually kinder to the player, so is Tails' flying, and assuming the player didn't just stab the button, so is Knuckles' gliding. I bring up all that for the sake of considering other solutions.

    _____

    The two-button approach is even more overinflated a solution in my opinion. An extra button to address a problem that only occurs at certain locations, and only for Sonic, only for 3 shields. It must be less than 1% of the jumps the player does. I was also a bit confused in that sentence where you wrote "and curls into a ball." If jumping from rolling... he's already in a ball. Shrug. I'm just not a fan of this approach at all; it even threatens the 3-button spin dash, already nerfed to 2 buttons, that a lot of people use.

    _____

    Approaches:
    1. Revert back to the original style. No specials at all unless the player jumped.

    2. Do nothing and keep your S2H style. Specials work from any air status if y_vel > -4 pixels/frame. It's a very minor problem perhaps not worth the oversolving.

    3. Implement one of the changes you suggest.

    4. Reconsider the "always 2 presses/curl up first" approach, bearing in mind that Tails and Knuckles don't need it.
    - Reduces need for 2 presses for two thirds of the game already by launching Tails and Knuckles into their flight immediately.
    - Means Sonic is the only character that can re-curl in the air.
    - This makes perfect sense; he's a hedgehog, he's a guy who rolls natively. Um, I'm ignoring echidnas at this moment heh (and even SA1 uses a 2 press method for Knuckles doh!)
    - Just like the insta-shield, it suits Sonic's style of play perfectly; re-curling is a move that gives Sonic a small but useful extra power yet, like the insta-shield, it does not damage his motion at all; a perk Tails and Knuckles don't get with their specials.
    - If anything, is too much of a buff for Sonic as it will allow him to recurl always, just like the insta-shield does in S2H now, without messing up his flow with whatever shield he's currently wearing. He will always be able to protect himself from running off edges, and he will always be able to convert every spring's bounce into a badnik or monitor rebound. (An example, EHZ act 2, get a lightning or homing shield then return to the start. Hit the yellow spring and try to bounce off the power sneakers. This is quite difficult; it's actually much better to lose the shield first. Changing Sonic to "One press to curl, 2 presses to activate secondary move" means he'll always have the power to aim his spring/fall-to-rebound transitions properly.)
    - If you're rolling-falling then just go straight to the special move. It will be intuitive because the player will see that Sonic is already curled. This would mean the issue you raised about mistiming platform jumps will still exist when rolling from platforms, but not running, and not from springs. I think that's fair. The problem is minimised, the player has the option of running instead, or Tails, or Knuckles, to avoid punishment or they can try for the more skillful, more punishable, rolling jump in the 0.5% of the time this will ever be a concern.

    _____

    I have more thoughts on the matter but I think I've written enough heh.