don't click here

Sonic Classic Heroes

Discussion in 'Engineering & Reverse Engineering' started by flamewing, Nov 2, 2010.

  1. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,662
    22
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    So I just started playing the newest release... Nothing of real importance that needs to be reported yet... Maybe if I can't find anything major, I'll start going into nitpicking mode again and bring a laundry list of bugs as always. :)

    BUT I wanted to ask a question... is Knuckles supposed to have the same jump height as Sonic and Tails? Did you do this intentionally??? Just curious.
     
  2. flamewing

    flamewing

    Emerald Hunter Tech Member
    1,161
    65
    28
    France
    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    Yes; I mentioned it in one of the changelogs. As far as I know, the only reason for Knuckles having a lower jump in S3&K is to prevent it from taking routes intended for Sonic. Moreover, it is hard already for the AI to keep up without such limitations.
     
  3. dsrb

    dsrb

    Member
    3,149
    0
    16
    Ninja'd just as I was just about to espouse the virtues of the ‘search this topic’ bar…

    The lower jump is rather pointless in Sonic 2’s levels, as you've said. (Besides, even if it were included, Knuckles could still destroy half of them simply by gliding!)
     
  4. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,662
    22
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    Got something interesting... It's gonna need some testing. But, I was fighting the ARZ boss, and got 7 of 8 hits. I was Tails, (w/ Sonic and Knuckles) and One of the sidekicks hit the boss for the last hit , and suddenly, the pillars sunk quickly and the boss took off without any delay... the camera immediately panned toward the capsule (following me again, as it would normally after the boss leaves... but it isnt supposed to be sudden like that). I hit the capsule and instead of normal animals, I got little critters with what can only be described as tiles from the explosion graphic, mapped out as animals. All this mind you, while the boss music never stopped until the score tally. I don't know how this bug happened, I reckon I could try it again and see if I can take a stab at what it could be, but I think you'd have a better idea than I would... you're the hacker. Just thought I'd share.
     
  5. Gregster

    Gregster

    Oldbie
    45
    2
    8
    Loving it so far, initial observation re. the Super-Peel-Out (UP+B/C) however is that it feels very useless compared to the Spin Dash (DOWN+B/C), which provides the same speed AND protects by keeping you spinning. I mashed my buttons but could not get the Peel-Out to provide more speed than the Spin Dash.

    I feel the usefulness of the Peel-Out in Sonic CD came from it being tremendously faster than the Spin Dash (it brought you to a max speed higher than Sonic could reach normally or via the Spin Dash), at the cost of being more dangerous, as not spinning left you vulnerable to any Badnik you then happened to put your face into. It seems the one in your hack is just "dangerous": It doesn't seem to provide any benefits other than aesthetics.

    I think either (A) giving the Peel-Out a higher top speed but the same rev-up time, or (B) a higher top speed but returning it to "hold the button down to charge it" Sonic CD behavior, would make it a viable maneuver in its own right.

    Personally, I'm in favor of B as that's what my muscle memory has remembered, but players who haven't played CD often might prefer the other
     
  6. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,662
    22
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    I second this... I think you should also go with the Sonic CD control as far as the Peel Out is concerned... Otherwise I'd have no reason to wanna use it really.

    BTW Greg, I countered the fact of being vunerable by spinning after the peel out... and also, an advantage of the peel out, you can forcefully accel when running. While spinning, it is a matter of if the terrain is in your favor
     
  7. flamewing

    flamewing

    Emerald Hunter Tech Member
    1,161
    65
    28
    France
    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    This is a well known glitch. There a single frame (1/60 of a second) as the boss starts swinging during which killing the boss triggers that. I have looked over the boss' code a bit to try to find the cause, but it is complicated -- there is a lot of code involved whose full effects are hard to determine.


    It doesn't, they use the exact same mechanics. The spindash has the advantages you mention, but the peelout has others: your speed isn't being continually reduced because you are rolling, you can brake much more efficiently if needed and you have full control over jumps because you are not jumping from a rolling state. These 3 things are also true about the SCD peel-out vs spindash, by the way.

    That right there is a common misconception people seem to have about the SCD peel-out: that it is faster than the spindash. It charges faster than the spindash (1/4 of a second faster, to be precise), but it is the exact same speed as the spindash: 12 pixels per frame. The slower charge, and the advantages I mentioned above, are the sole differences between the SCD peel-out and spindash.
     
  8. Deef

    Deef

    Member
    733
    22
    18
    The peel-out implementation does go against the norm but I don't know what to make of it yet. I have to admit, my experience of the hold-to-charge peel-out is made up of just as many fan games as it is of Sonic CD itself. If the holding method was applied it would barely be useful over the spin-dash. Bear in mind that when the peel-out was introduced it wasn't the hold-to-charge move; the spin-dash was equally slow to power up.

    It feels weird being mash-to-charge, but if it was hold-to-charge you'd almost never use it unless it gets a significant buff and then it's more questions about balance, no? So far, the mashy version isn't messing anything up.

    A suggestion that just came to mind though: A "significant buff" that largely avoids balancing issues could be that idea of Sonic pulling the other characters, using the peel-out to cue it in some way. Not saying it's a new concept, and I don't think the sprites that exist are really cut out for it, but if it were to be implemented it could be used to kill 2 birds with 1 stone: Sonic gets a move that interacts with the others, and the more familiar hold-to-charge peel-out could exist without feeling redundant nor unbalancing.

    I was just now playing the game thinking that the pull towards using Tails is getting stronger because it's simply fun to be able to affect the other characters.

    (On that note, I still honestly can't say any character gets the clear lead for my attention now. The gameplay between the characters really is nicely balanced; I enjoy them all.)


    Haven't really hammered this version yet, but I did get this funny little bug: :D

    [​IMG]

    It was only coincidence that I turned back after zooming past the starpost.


    This hack is really letting me enjoy the Sonic 2 level designs more than I ever did. When I first played SFR I kept running out of time; 10 minutes repeatedly lost in a 30 second act because I wanted to just keep playing. I don't remember feeling that when I played Sonic 2 as a kid. Now Sonic 2 Heroes is doing the same thing; I am bummed when some of the levels end. EHZ and ARZ especially. I wish there was a gargantuan version of EHZ to explore in this. Like Mushroom Hill size, but Emerald Hill design.
     
  9. jasonchrist

    jasonchrist

    Give Us A Wank Banned
    1,893
    0
    0
    Sonic Classic Hybrid Project
    Who here has actually played normal Sonic 2 since getting stuck into this?
     
  10. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,662
    22
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    Forget Vanilla Sonic 2.... I've only been playing THIS, Sonic 3 Complete, and working on my engine... thats it!
    Oh, Out of curiousity jasonchrist... I've been wondering where in the hell your dancing friend with the chicken wings came from???
     
  11. Got more bugs here.

    • Setting up teams via the Options screen can be quite screwy, especially if you're setting up teams of one or two with Knuckles or Tails in the lead. Sometimes the wrong sidekick may load, or sometimes the leader may not appear at all, resulting in the screen scrolling all the way to the top left corner of the map with the sidekicks helplessly jumping at the left of the level boundary. This usually happens if you rotate the characters with B before you reduce the number of characters with A. The worst case of this can happen if you press B, B, A and C in that order while the team is configured at the default setup.
    • The endings also tend to be screwy for teams of one or two characters, usually with characters appearing out of nowhere. Tails' solo endings are the worst offenders, as they skip the greyscale ending images (like in vanilla Sonic 2), Amy flies in to save Tails too early, and nobody appearing to pose when the Tornado flies toward the screen (in the non-super ending) with the game being stuck there until the music ends.
    • Hazards such as the swinging chain ball and swinging spiked platform in MCZ and the MZ boss' laser can't harm anyone for some reason.
    • When Knuckles is facing left while leaning over the right edge of land he appears to go into a frame of his walking animation instead of his balancing animation.
    • I was able to make Knuckles do this by gliding into one of the walls of the spike pits in MCZ2:
    [​IMG]
     
  12. flamewing

    flamewing

    Emerald Hunter Tech Member
    1,161
    65
    28
    France
    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    And I thought I had fixed all of those. Well, I will have to do what I wanted to avoid and build massive lookup tables...
    Edit: As it turns out, it was an error in the one lookup table I have for this -- that for changing team size -- which was leading to invalid combinations. All other code paths are sound. I also slightly modified the point where number drawing, just in case someone decides to press several buttons at the same time.

    I had forgotten to change the Tails solo ending; I did so now. I will investigate the others.

    That is because I neglected them when I converted S2 to use a S3&K-style collision response bug; this was, in fact, the reason why way back when I first released the hack, I asked people to look out for this kind of bug, and it is amazing to see that some persist even now. All 3 fixed.


    Will investigate, thanks.

    Not interested on terrain collision bugs at this stage.
     
  13. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,662
    22
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    Cheap topic bump.... well not really cheap, it isn't mine...

    BUT I have some more bugs to report.

    On some occasions when Tails is respawning to follow the leader, he will fly into water instead of change into his swimming animation. ALSO, The fish badniks in ARZ tend to swim in reverse sometimes. As noted, these bugs don't occur all the time, but they happen frequently enough... So I think more investigation is needed for finding the cause. I'm no hacker, so I can't really give an educated guess.

    @Flamewing: I noticed we are not seeing an update on this hack as quickly as we have in the past... I assume it is because we are now past the final revisions deadline for the Hacking Contest. That's understandable. I would like to offer this to you: I will run through the game in as many ways as I can possible, and find EVERY bug that I can. It will be compiled into a viewable document complete with the best descriptions (visual and written) I can provide. I have already started on it now. I will send it to you as soon as possible, and best of luck to your hack in this year's contest. It is a privilege to know that I contributed some feedback into helping fix up this great game. I look forward to future progress in this hack.

    Thanks ^_^
     
  14. flamewing

    flamewing

    Emerald Hunter Tech Member
    1,161
    65
    28
    France
    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    There is that and there is also the fact that I have gotten an inner ear infection that made life a bit difficult the past few days; it is getting better now, thanks to proper treatment. I have sent an updated build to the hacking contest in time (fixing team selection and endings), but the forums were too slow yesterday -- this means I will post it here later today. After that, I will implement many stuff and fix many bugs before releasing a new update (to keep things fresh).
     
  15. RetroKoH

    RetroKoH

    Member
    1,662
    22
    18
    Project Sonic 8x16
    Well... feel free to wait before fixing all of those extra bugs. I have plenty of bugs, big and small, to send to you. I will do my best to find each one that I can, including those that you might not want to take on until later. (For noting purposes)

    I already have a few jotted down for tonight, but I haven't been paying as much attention to this today, as I have teaching demos and a test for one of my classes to prepare for... But I'll make time on my trip while I am away.

    Looking forward to what is to come... ALSO, all others who can find bugs, I will do my best to include them in my bug list to send in... provided I can replicate them.
     
  16. Xodras

    Xodras

    Member
    18
    0
    0
    One bug, and one little suggestion which can be folded into a paper airplane and thrown away.

    Nature of the bug: 99 Rings, Super already activated from spawning (Dying, and re-spawning too) on every level.
    Characters tested with through leaders order: (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles) (Sonic, Knuckles) (Sonic, Tails) (Sonic)
    Entering level select and activating the super cheat 4, 1, 2, 6, (You can change your character leaders before you do this) will give super to everyone in your party from when you spawn.

    My little suggestion:
    Super sonic looks slower when "flying" max speed than normal sonic's max running peel out, not in the likes off his speed which has been settled on, but his sprites, I don't know if you've ever noticed and thought about it, but there you go.
     
  17. flamewing

    flamewing

    Emerald Hunter Tech Member
    1,161
    65
    28
    France
    Sonic Classic Heroes; Sonic 2 Special Stage Editor; Sonic 3&K Heroes (on hold)
    As mentioned in a changelog, this isn't a bug, it is by design. But come, now, seriously: how can a bug neatly give you 100 rings at the start of every level and already turn you into super? To think it is a bug is a logic fail of monumental proportions.
     
  18. TheInvisibleSun

    TheInvisibleSun

    OVER THE TOP TECHNO-BLAST Member
    1,626
    193
    43
    Buffalo, NY, USA
    The Water
    It's from a KFC commercial, I believe. And come to think of it, I actually haven't played Vanilla Sonic 2 in a LONG while...
     
  19. Gregster

    Gregster

    Oldbie
    45
    2
    8
    Good points.

    You're right, I didn't know that. Maybe you could make your Peel-Out charge slightly faster, then (requires fewer mashings)?
     
  20. Deef

    Deef

    Member
    733
    22
    18
    Just a minor FYI, jumping from a rolling state in Sonic CD was the same as jumping from a running state.

    Any chance of one last update coming soon?